bj penn got crushed by gsp, i've never seen anyone crush sanchez. bj penn is past his prime and becoming lazy from what i've read and heard. now granted i'm kinda new to the sport but they talk about sanchez like he's the second coming of christ. is bj penn really that much better? does everyone else agree with that?
what's wrong with bisping? doesn't the fighters record have a bunch to do with how good they are? (17-1)
liddell's right hand knockout punch WAS ferocious. he's another fighter on his way out. probably the most feared knockout puncher of the last 5 years though...don't ya think?
bye the way, no way should kenny florian make the list dude.
posted
Florian's beaten top competition within the last few years, and quite frankly has made himself no worse than the second best lightweight in the UFC, and possibly in the world after BJ. As for BJ, when the only two guys he's never beaten include a guy who's the current #1 contender for the light heavyweight title and the man who's no worse than #3 P4P in the world, it really doesn't signal a slippage in his own ranking. The guys that Penn has beaten at both 155 and 170 far outstrip the guys that Penn's beaten. Same goes for Bisping, he hasn't beaten anyone of note and lost decisively in his first step up against Evans. If Bisping beats Hendo, he would possibly warrant a spot in a top 10, but at the moment, he doesn't.
As for Liddell, he's lost 3 of his last 4 fights, and was brutally knocked out in two of them. His days at the top are over.
Records don't mean much by themselves. You have to look at the guys they have beaten over their career and who else they were willing to fight. Penn destroyed two top lightweights in Sherk and Stevenson, holds a submission win over Matt Hughes, fought GSP on even terms in their first fight and possibly could have won, holds wins over guys like Gomi, Pulver, and Uno, and asides from the losses to GSP and Machida, has beaten everyone he's ever faced, including splitting a pair of fights with Hughes and Pulver. Sanchez has beaten good competition, but his resume pales in comparison to BJ's.
P4P is also more of what you've done lately. Yeah, BJ did get killed by a prime GSP, but other than that, he's destroyed everyone else he's fought. Sanchez has lost to the two best guys he's fought, and his best wins were some time ago, over Diaz and Parisyan. Liddell dropped out of any sort of mythical P4P top 10 right after he lost to Jardine, and especially after he got iced by Evans.
Posts: 2681 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Isn't Fedor 29-0-1? With the "1" being a no contest. As disappointing as Shogun has been, I'd place him in my top ten before Liddell. I'd also place Dan Henderson over Bisping.
Posts: 3359 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
as much as I don't like it soon Lesner will have to be on everyone's list. Lets face it. There is noone in mma who can beat him now at the heavyweight spot including fedor. He is only going to get better he is still learning.
Posts: 235 | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fedor is actually something like 29-1 with a no contest, which doesn't count on a record. Yes, even Fedor has a loss, early in his career on a cut TKO to Tsuyoshi Kohsaka. When they rematched in Pride years later with Fedor's title on the line, Fedor destroyed him with ease.
I wouldn't argue with Lesnar on a top 10 if he beats Mir. Holding wins over him, Couture, and Herring in his first 5 fights is damn impressive. Shogun's been too inactive for me to place him in my personal top 10, as far as I know, I think his last fight was that loss to Griffin, though I could be mistaken.
The one guy who could really make more of a name for himself will be my boy Miguel Torres. He's defending his title against one of the top bantamweights from Japan next, and a win there would only solidify his reign at 135, and put him up closer to the rarified air of guys like Fedor, GSP, Anderson, and Penn.
Posts: 2681 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sanchez could concievably beat Penn if that fight happens, but until it does, there's no justification to rank him ahead of BJ. I think Penn would destroy Sanchez as he's far more skilled than anyone Sanchez has ever been in there with, but Diego is bigger, younger and does have the potential to perhaps someday reach the level of greatness that Penn has enjoyed for years. With the move down to lightweight it's make or break time for Sanchez. He was being billed as a Welterweight contender but after losses to Koscheck and Fitch it was obvious he was not ready for St. Pierre. He's put together a few wins since now and at lightweight he's definatly an instant contender after defeating Stevenson, however I'd hold off ranking him in any top ten list to see how he fares against Sherk, Florian and/or Penn, a trio of lightweights that I would currently rank ahead of him. I think Penn will continue to dominate the lightweight division as long as he feels like it. He's just that much better than everyone else at 155. Losses to Matt Hughes (UFC hall of famer considered by many the greatest welterweight of all time)Lyoto Machida (Undefeated number one contender three weight classes above his own) and George St. Pierre (Current Welterweight champion and considered one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world) are not really blemishes on the record of the lighweight champion as much as they are a credit to how good the natural 155er really is to even be in there against those guys.
Bisping's the same way. He's got a good record, lots of potential but we're about to find out how good he really is starting now. He's looked awesome at middleweight but I think he's going to get beat by Hendo who'll be the toughest test of his career by far and if he does manage to win that one, I think he'll get murdered by Anderson Silva. I thought he actually won that fight with Evans. (His only loss) It was a split decision, if I was scoring it, I'd have given it to Bisping, however if he got screwed on that scorecard, his record is still correct because he was handed a gift decision over Matt Hamill in another split. He's good enough now to deserve those two fights, but how he will do in them will determine where he would rank in the top ten. I don't see him doing to well in either of those potential matchups but you never know.
Shogun's looked awful in the UFC. When he came over I had him ranked number 1 at lightheavyweight and 4th overall but between injury, inactivity, poor conditioning and perhaps the UFC rules preventing the use of soccer kicks, stomps and knees to the head of downed opponents he's looked average at best in the UFC. The pride rules favor the ruthless style of shootbox more so than the UFC and he doesn't seem to have quite figured it out yet. The potential is there for him to perhaps get back to where he once was and back on track to where it appeared he was going after winning the lightheavyweight grandprix before Pride folded but until he does something impressive in the UFC it's tough to justify putting him in the top 10 pound for pound list.
I was going to put Lesnar on my list in one of the bottom 3 spots but I'm holding off until after he destroys Mir. (at least I hope) What he's done in becomming champion so far is nothing short of amazing to break into the UFC with virtually no MMA backround at all face nothing but guys who were Mixed Martial Arts championship caliber opponents and top ranked heavyweights. Even though he lost to Mir a former world champion, he had that fight won in my opinion had the ref not fucked him by standing the fighters up and taking a point from Lesnar without warning. Dispute that he regained control and had Mir where he wanted him again before making a rookie mistake and walking right into a kneebar. I think he'll destroy Mir in their next fight but there's still the possibility that a guy with Mir's level of Ju-Jitsu will catch him and submit him and if that happens, submission fighters will likely see it as the way to beat the big man and pose a problem for Lesnar going forward until he gets a few years BJJ under his belt. Hopefully he'll destroy Mir and send the same message he sent to fellow wrestler's and ground and pound experts that he sent by stopping Couture and the same message he sent to stand up fighters and highly skilled brawlers that he sent by dominating Herring that he's become a dominate force in MMA.
The only person that message won't apply to is Fedor who may not even be human. Lesnar would get schooled by Fedor who's never lost an MMA fight. His record shows a loss to TK but that fight should have been ruled a No contest because the cut that stopped the fight was due to an illegal blow. However because it was in a tournament and the doctor's would not allow Fedor to continue on the tournament the win was handed to TK because he was able to fight in the next round. He put any doubt to rest as to who was the better fighter in their rematch when he obliterated TK viciously. Fedor will never be knocked out, submitted or beaten by decision by any human being on this planet. He cuts easily, so it's possible a ref might stop a fight and give it to his opponent in some freak fluke but other than that he's unbeatable and Brock Lesnar would be no exception. Fedor is the greatest fighter who's ever lived by far.
To say Fedor is unbeatable is a bit much. He looked very beatable in his last fight. Arlovski was completely dominating, he just got overconfident with the wrong dude. If they were to rematch I think AA would take it.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
If they rematched, Fedor would knock his ass out sooner. I'll give you that Arlovski's length and speed was something of a puzzle, but he certainly wasn't dominating. The only man who even came close to "dominating" Fedor was probably Hunt when he nearly put the Americana on him a few years ago. A few kicks to the legs and one to the body doesn't mean domination. Name me another man who can knock a 250 lb. man out of a flying knee attempt with a single punch, just about stopping him in mid-air. I bet you can't.
Posts: 2681 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Did you see the figh? Arlovski was peppering him, he landed at least 4 straight rights to the chin and that was after a combination of punches. He then landed a push kick that sent Fedor into the corner, he fucked up really bad by trying a flying knee and got caught.
As to who else made Fedor look bad: Fujita almost knocked him out he in Pride via over hand right, as did Randleman with that ridiculous head spike. Neither one of those two guys even scrapes the top 20 on anyones heavyweight list.
And who could "knock out a 250lb pound guy out of a flying knee attempt with a single punch"...you bet I can't name one? really? Forget 90 percent of k-1 heavyweights as they kind of do that on a regular basis. I'll spare you that and only name MMA guys:
All of the aformentioned have the capability to knock a 250+ man out standing/flying/hovering/dancing...whatever. Aside from timing, the fact that a dude is jumping doesnt make him harder to knock out. I would argue that if one's timing is on point, it's easier. As in the case of AA, defense is completely void.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Silva Is the nearest thing to Bruce lee we have ever seen. In terms of hand and leg speed and timing. Silva is #1 until someone can beat him
Posts: 235 | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree in that Silva is #1. Okami and Maia are waiting. I think Maia stands a better chance as his jiu-jitsu is light years ahead of anyone at any wieght class in the UFC. Even with that I think Anderson is still too much.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by mafeet: Did you see the figh? Arlovski was peppering him, he landed at least 4 straight rights to the chin and that was after a combination of punches. He then landed a push kick that sent Fedor into the corner, he fucked up really bad by trying a flying knee and got caught.
As to who else made Fedor look bad: Fujita almost knocked him out he in Pride via over hand right, as did Randleman with that ridiculous head spike. Neither one of those two guys even scrapes the top 20 on anyones heavyweight list.
These examples don't make Fedor look bad at all, it's his reaction to these situations where he faces some adversity in a fight that make him the greatest fighter of all time. In the Arlovski fight, Andrei had dished out nearly all of the offence in the entire fight and it appeared he had Fedor on the ropes and then bang! Fedor strikes and Arlovski's out like a light. Fujita Rocked him with a shot that would have knocked out anyone else on the planet and Fedor just instantly recovers and ends the fight. Randleman spikes him on his head in a move that would break most people's neck and perhaps end their career, but when he does it to Fedor, a minute later the fight is over and Fedor has won it. The kind of indestructability that Fedor desplays in tough situations combined with the technical ability he's showcased in his more dominant victories is almost scary. The man is unbeatable.
posted
My argument was that those situations elude to "chinks" in his armor. I feel that Fedor is the best heavyweight in the world and has proven so. But I do not think he is unbeatable.
I think someone like Machida is more unbeatable as I have never seen the dude take a clean shot to the face nor have I ever seen him in serious trouble. His style doesn't cater to the casual fan but he is so elusive, well-rounded and technical that I don't see anyone beating him.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
