posted
Hey tasm, I read something tonight that I hadn't noticed before, even though I've read the book of John through... and when I noticed it, I thought back on your question about the after-life.
I'm going to quote the book of John, chapter 8, verses 54-59, and the italics is added to emphasize the point in it. This is a part where Jesus is facing off with the Jewish religious leaders...
Jesus answered , "If I were to honor myself, that honor would be worth nothing. The one who honors me is my Father-the very one you say is your God. You have never known him, but I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him, and I obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see the time of my coming: he saw it and was glad."
They said to him, "You are not even fifty years old-and you have seen Abraham?"
"I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'."
Then they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and left the Temple.
Now think about that for a minute, I hadn't noticed this reference until tonight. Jesus said Abraham saw His coming to Earth, and yet Abraham had been dead for over 3000 years at this point. A definite indication, to me anyway, that people, some people anyway, do go on to a place after death.
Cross-reference this to the book of Luke, chapter 16, verse 23, where Jesus is talking about Lazarus and the Rich Man which says:
and in hades, where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.
Just a couple more thoughts to add to the mix.
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posted
How could jesus be born before abraham?I wonder everybody has an immediate after-life.If not,what would be god's reason for some people to have one and some not to.
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Jesus Christ was alive in Heaven even before the Earth was created. Here you go:
Before the world was created, the Word existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God. From the very beginning the Word was with God. Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him. The Word was the source of life, and this life brought light to mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out. John 1:1-5
also:
The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory he received as the Father's only Son. John 1:14
Now, cross-reference this to: (italics added)
Then God said, "And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all animals, domestic and wild, large and small." Genesis 1:26
The books of Genesis and John are a few thousand years apart when they were written. Also, something to take into consideration is God the Father's name: Yhwh (pronounced Yah-weh), which has been translated through the years to Jehovah, but this name was originally translated in Greek to Elohim. Elohim is a pluralistic name, meaning more than one, hence anothe reference to Jesus being one in the same as God the Father.
So going on this, Jesus was already around even before Abraham was being conceived. By Him being "born" into this world, He was merely fulfilling prophecy in becoming a man, and this was done for several reasons (I can go into them sometime later on if you like).
quote: I wonder everybody has an immediate after-life.If not,what would be god's reason for some people to have one and some not to.
Well, my Bro, if I could answer that question I'd be able to second-guess The Almighty, and if I could do that I probably wouldn't be working two lousy low-paying jobs to make ends meet!
But if I could wager a guess, I'd say the reason some people get an immediate after-life is either because God feels the need to grant them that, or they may have earned it by being true prophets of His message.
Hope this helps.
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posted
neither, first came microbial life and that adam and eve story is a crock. humans are from just like everyone else we all come from dirt or soil we are what we eat our food comes from soil which is in its true self virtually a whole universe in its self. the millions of life forms that keep us alive every moment of our life as we take it all for granted. where do we come from? you ask? we are the imagination of the universe which is the imagination of a greater existance. we have just begun to scratch the surface:)
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quote:we are the imagination of the universe which is the imagination of a greater existance. we have just begun to scratch the surface:)
Honey, you show just as much FAITH as the Adam and Eve believers..Sounds like you believe in some sort of higher power..
quote: neither, first came microbial life and that adam and eve story is a crock.
Wow..Finally the answer to all my questions..The fact that you said all of this is a crock, tells me you think you have all the answers..Science and religion are both FUN subjects...However,We still have no clue of who we are and why we exist...(some think they do)All we have is our "FAITH" in what we believe....PERIOD!!
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You wanna play with my warm hosed feet. Don't you? Posts: 2077 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Hmmm, How can anyone say? I don't belive the Bible, I think it was written by men, and for mankind. I cannot take it seriously when someone tries to "prove" anything by using the writings of some middle-easterners from 3,000 years ago, before toothbrushes, before refridgerators, before archaology, before any real science cam into the picture.
If the Bible is valid, then logically, so are the ancient Greek and Roman texts, as well as all of the sun-worshippers and pagans, etc... Just because somebody SAId it is the WORD OF GOD, don't mean it's true. Of course, "science" is also man-made and perpetuated, so who knows? I like being able to find bones in stratified earth, carbon date them, and cross-refernce said findings against actual documented PHYSICAL evidence, (not some scroll uncovered near in Israel with more of the same bible-babble on it,) and THEN draw a conclusion. Which came first? According to the EARTH'S physical records, (layers of buried soil, rock, lava, sand, etc.,) the dinosaurs came before. Go even further back, and you'll find worms, arachnids, and even further, there were microbes, and viruses, and one-celled algae, and before that, there were simple protein chains ust blooming near volcanic vents in the ocean's fllor.
Why must we persue this question, when truly, creation is but a moment, continualy becoming, Living, dying. Right here, and right NOW. To find the "answers", try to bring yourself to the NOW, where YOU are. In this moment, you exist, and in no other place. The answers you seek are inside YOU, as you are a part of the creation. If this was just a thread to explore further the writings of the Bible only, and to determine what IT really says, then never mind my post, it won't help. I'm a backsliding unitarian, a blue-domer. The blue dome is the sky, and the roof of my church. I have no real need for biblical meanderings, they are merely exercises in scholastics. The bush you beat around is actually where it's at. If there are flowers on that bush, then take a long sweet whiff! Sniff sniff... So sweet!
quote: If this was just a thread to explore further the writings of the Bible only, and to determine what IT really says, then never mind my post, it won't help. I'm a backsliding unitarian, a blue-domer.
No problem. Even though this is a question about what the Bible says (the title kinda' makes that clear ) your opinion's welcome too.
BTW, you might be interested to know that the Bible doesn't contradict the findings of fossils and things. In fact, it gave a description of Creation that matches it all quite well, and it was written, as you say, before any "real" science. Not bad for a bunch of Middle-Eastern Jews with no "real" science at their disposal.
You sound like a reasonable man, so why not try studying the Bible before you blow it off so quickly. I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm not retarded either, and I personally find the Bible very interesting and fascinating...you might too. And as Bill Cosby used to say on that old Fat Albert cartoon, "If you're not careful, you just might learn something."
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posted
LMAO lou, you are a trip! Um, yes, I have read the bible, and I have seen nice little gems of truth and knowledge, but it still ain't me. I won't try to prove/disprove the teachings of it, but after having read it, on a "study plan", I see that for some it reveals light, and for me, well, if most of the lights are on, and someone throws you a flashlight, well, you just tuck it away and say, "Thanks!" I already have a flashlight, and it shines! I would rather just explore God than read about it. Scholastic exercises are good, but if I am not getting my hands dirty it doesn't "light me up". I only speak for me. I do find it comical when at the end of every quote of Jesus' it ends with, "I tell you no lie.", or "I tell you the truth." Also, one of my absolute favs is, "There will be much screaming, and gnashing of teeth." That cracks me up, for since I am not afraid of God, or the terrible responsibility granted to us as being here/there, I am not particularly motivated by scare tactics and bribes. I know that God supports us and loves us, and does what it does for reasons largely unknown to us. We all have our built-in compasses in our hearts, and already know enough to grow, create, and "graduate" from this place we call Earth. It is when we let go of our tiny analytical minds and get in touch with our higher selves, the eternal beings that we are, and still believe that we find our faith and callings. Like I said, this is only good for me, I'm not preaching or trying to sway anybody here. I'm just glad y'all have found someting that puts you in touch with the Creator, the Source, and the Light. As long as you don't lose yourselves in the instuction manual, and get to building the project at hand in a loving and open way. God bless everything.
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quote: Um, yes, I have read the bible, and I have seen nice little gems of truth and knowledge, but it still ain't me. I won't try to prove/disprove the teachings of it, but after having read it, on a "study plan", I see that for some it reveals light, and for me, well, if most of the lights are on, and someone throws you a flashlight, well, you just tuck it away and say, "Thanks!" I already have a flashlight, and it shines!
If you don't mind me asking, what kind of study plan was it? One a particular church recommended? One you saw and followed? I'm curious...
quote: I would rather just explore God than read about it. Scholastic exercises are good, but if I am not getting my hands dirty it doesn't "light me up". I only speak for me.
And how are you going about "getting your hands dirty" in your study on God? If you're onto something I'm not aware of, educate me please...
quote: I do find it comical when at the end of every quote of Jesus' it ends with, "I tell you no lie.", or "I tell you the truth."
That may sound funny, but there was a reason for it. Up to and at the time of Jesus' ministry, there were false prophets out the nose. Matter of fact, I'm currently reading the book of Jeremiah, and it's kinda' amazing how many people claimed to be "speaking for God" when in fact all they were doing was tickling ears, telling people what they wanted to hear instead of the truth....kinda' like now-a-days with all these televangelists and leftist churches.
quote: Also, one of my absolute favs is, "There will be much screaming, and gnashing of teeth." That cracks me up, for since I am not afraid of God, or the terrible responsibility granted to us as being here/there, I am not particularly motivated by scare tactics and bribes.
If you'll read that line in context, Jesus wasn't using it as a scare tactic or a bribe. He was impressed with the faith that a gentile Roman officer showed toward Him, and used it to show His being disgruntled with how the Jews, who had "known" God the Father all along (whereas the concept was relatively new to the Romans) didn't show the same faith for the most part. No scare tactic, just stating a fact. I'd figure that if Jesus were suing it as a scare tactic, He'd have embellished a whole lot more on the details involved with said suffering.
quote: I know that God supports us and loves us, and does what it does for reasons largely unknown to us. We all have our built-in compasses in our hearts, and already know enough to grow, create, and "graduate" from this place we call Earth. It is when we let go of our tiny analytical minds and get in touch with our higher selves, the eternal beings that we are, and still believe that we find our faith and callings.
You sound like quite the Humanist. I personally don't think humanity deserves that much credit, just look around and it's not too hard to see why. Not saying there are no redeeming points in humanity, or a glimmer of hope within us, but I think it's pretty safe to say that if we as humans had so much power within us, and knew how to follow that little compass in our hearts, there wouldn't be half the trouble in the world we're dealing with now.
quote: Like I said, this is only good for me, I'm not preaching or trying to sway anybody here.
Cool, hope you don't think I am either.
quote: I'm just glad y'all have found someting that puts you in touch with the Creator, the Source, and the Light. As long as you don't lose yourselves in the instuction manual, and get to building the project at hand in a loving and open way.
I totally understand this point, and I agree with you for the most part...however, I think it's important to KNOW the instruction manual relatively well before you begin the work. You wouldn't try to wire up a house before you're pretty well versed in electricity, so likewise I don't think it's a good idea to try to "know" God without understanding the groundwork first. That's not getting lost in it by studying it, that's just putting your own personal biases on the backburner and getting down to business. God forbid a child molester trying to justify himself by saying "Well God created little kids too..." or a murderer saying "If it wasn't God's will, it'd be impossible to kill other people..." Extreme examples, but hopefully the point is there.
And for the record, I don't claim to have all the answers, or always know what's right. It kills me to see people take a line here and there out of the Bible and run with it, sometimes completely twisting those lines around to fit their own agenda...I personally have a big disdain for organized religion because of things like this. I'm also not claiming to be a Biblical scholar, I'm just reading and trying to fully grasp a book that we all have access to. If a question comes up that I think I might know an answer to, I'll sound off, but I'm not trying to preach to anybody...
quote: God bless everything.
God bless you too you crazy Humanist.
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posted
Geez.. If I had more time, I'd do better trying to answer your questions, but I'll try. The study plan was one I found in a "study bible".
As for getting my hands dirty, I mean just trying to reach out with my soul. You now, by quieting my mind, and breathing, and allowing my light to grow and reach the source. One can actually "feel" the facade(s) peeling back, and feel yourself emerging into the higher being. By opening those barriers, it gets me high, and fills my heart/soul with love. God's love.
I understand that Jesus for the most part did not use scare tactics, but I did find some references to punishment of the lord by him, and I'm not going to pull out the bible and begin quoting scripture, so don't even ask.
As for our own personal power, well, evrybody DOES have immense power at their hands. Think of everything you have ever done, and maybe what you WILL do, and you will begin to see your role as a "creator". Many of us exercise this power to create without being conscious of our actions, be they sub-conscious or not, but the fact remains, we "do" stuff all the time, and it is woven into the fabric of existence. Things that seem little might turn out to be big, and vice-versa. Just because we can't always see the implications, doesn't mean they aren't there. BTW, I didn't say most know how to follow the compass, which is why I felt compelled to post here. You are right: Problems arise when people ignore theier basic sensibilities, and do the evil deed regardless.
No, I don't think you are here ot prostletize, and I appreciate and honor your views.
Um, as for the manual thing, well, I don't need one, but that's not saying that nobody does... It's a tricky subject indeed. What I see is that when we open up our hearts, and try to get in touch with god one-to one, it pays more to "unlearn" the egos we have installed for our own defense and functionality "HERE". The universe is much too complex and exists as a riddle that our minds may not solve. It would drive us mad to try. We must "let go" and "let god" in that instant.
Hey, it works for me... I say, do what gets you there, too, and we'll have more love in the world.
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posted
Brother vasduten, when you first popped into this thread, I thought you were going to be a total asshole...and, well, you're still an asshole, but I'm an asshole too, so its all good! (plus, you're a fellow fan of Sandy, so you're already cool in my book)
I think I better understand where you're coming from now...that is, we're better off not nitpicking Scripture all day long, but trying to live a better life? (I probably got it wrong...again...)
If so, I can agree and disagree with this, but for the most part I think you've got a strong point. I respect your views too.
But let me say this: if you ever wanna delve into the Bible again someday, maybe discuss something in particular about it, feel free to drop me a PM or e-mail whenever you want. I'm not here to preach, but I do like talking about it all, and if the urge ever hits that you want to discuss it, give me a holler.
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posted
Yes, Lou, that was basically my point. Less reading, talking and more DOING! I think open discussion is great, as well as reading and learning, and helps everyone immensely, but it ain't all of it. So wee see eye to eye. I don't see any disagreement on any fundamental level, Lou. As for which door to use, well, that's anybody's choice, and not really something to "agree" or "disagree" on. It's relative.
Also, If I ever do want to explore more of the bible, I would most definately go to you. I can't think of anyone who I'd rather explore that with. You are honest, compassionate, and intelligent. You seem to be well-versed in this topic, too, which shows an honest desire for truth.
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