How does everybody feel about immigration in their country?
I'll post my opinion after I get some input from you cool folks. Posted by Troy Boy (Member # 1689) on :
Nice topic as always Lou. In the US everyone is an immigrant one way or another. I am Puerto rican, Indian, and Black, with a tad irish. I have just about all the creeds colors and religions in my family. Everyone leaves from their country to another for a reason. Either for a better life for themselves, family or both. Its wrong that Corporations take advantage of them and not pay people their fair wage and that is something that needs to change. As far as jobs being taken away from those born in this country, dont blame the people blame the businesses for taking advantage of them...
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
Thanks for the kind words and your opinion on this Troy Boy. I'm in agreement with you for the most part.
Anybody else have an opinion before I start rambling? Posted by leopardskins (Member # 1683) on :
I am for it. I would like to live as a "citizen of the world" however, I just dont see that happening. I happen to live in the US.
Posted by Pink (Member # 1577) on :
This is Neo. This is far to intricate a topic for me. Until the mid 80`s we required Visas for all foreigners entering the U.S. Since Reagan did away with this, we have no way of tracing legal OR illegal immigration. In the current state of the world, does this make sense or is it in our best interests? Our overly lax border attitudes have also made an ENGLISH speaking country start to have Spanish as a main language. There are even schools in California that teach children in spanish. TEACH THEM ENGLISH! If I were to move to Italy, I would learn Italian, if I moved to France, I would learn French. I would not expect thier culture to cater to my ignorance. In France, they speak french and live french. That is what is expected of those who visit or move there. Is this so wrong? I actually respect them for protecting thier culture. What is our problem? I have seen how Germany has changed over the years due to the `open border` mentality impressed upon them by the rest of the world after WWII. The TRUE German works hard and pulls their wieght. They had a nice closed system that is now being abused. Foreigners are moving there, taking advantage of a social system in place for those who truly need it when unemployed. (not common for a european) They get money for food, shelter and clothing, but most of the money gets sent out of the country to family back home. How long can you remove money from a system before it runs out? Open the borders, but make the `New` Americans speak the language and be productive in our culture and society. America is an interesting example. We do not have an `actual` culture. Ours is a melting pot. In other countries, they have a culture defined and they leave it at that. In America we must learn the balance of respecting other cultures as well as our own without losing each different culture. If you cannot respect other cultures, then you do not deserve your own. If you move to the States, show some respect for those who were here before you. The golden rule of every religion and philosophy in the simplest terms is this: `Live and let live`. We should embrace any new people that want to be a part of this wonderful country, but that is just the catch, `BE A PART OF THIS COUNTRY` That means keeping U.S. dollars here and speaking one common language, while still keeping ones own culture alive. Those of you outside the U.S. have most likely seen the typical American tourist expecting english to be spoken everywhere. If more Americans spoke the language of the country they were visiting, dont they realize what a more pleasant welcome they will recieve in the country they are visiting? I could go on but I will see how this is taken. -Neo
[ April 17, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Pink ]
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
Neo, my Bro, I'm pressed for time at the moment, so I can't respond how I'd like to, but since you said you wanted to see how this is taken, let me put your mind at ease and say that I totally agree with everything you wrote. Matter of fact, if anything, my opinion goes along the lines of your's and maybe a bit further. But like I say, I'll wait until I can really hammer out something worthy, being as your response was so well-written and intriguing to read. Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
Lou, I cant wait! This happens to be a topic that gets my adrenaline going so bad that I get the shakes. Hehe. I feel so strongly about peoples cultures being an important role in human existence. All of the wonderful cultures and kinds of beautiful people make this world the great place it is. Do you realize how boring this place would be if we were all the same? However, as the world becomes a global society, I fear the natural loss of some culture and language. Just take a look at europe. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" We should keep this in mind as we consider a global market and society. There are some basic universal truths and logic that gets lost in our overthought modern world. Most of these issues are actually quite simple, and would be for most animals. It is our human thought and choice that makes it hard for us to see clearly the simple things.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
Okay, it took me a while to get back on here, but let's get the party started! *pops knuckles*
quote: Until the mid 80`s we required Visas for all foreigners entering the U.S. Since Reagan did away with this, we have no way of tracing legal OR illegal immigration. In the current state of the world, does this make sense or is it in our best interests? Our overly lax border attitudes have also made an ENGLISH speaking country start to have Spanish as a main language. There are even schools in California that teach children in spanish. TEACH THEM ENGLISH!
You'd be surprised at the number of jobs out there, whether on an assembly line or serving food at a restaurant, that require supervisors to know Spanish as well as English. Matter of fact, it's pretty common at these types of places that a person has no hope of ever getting a supervisor's position unless he or she is pretty fluent in Spanish.
quote: If I were to move to Italy, I would learn Italian, if I moved to France, I would learn French. I would not expect thier culture to cater to my ignorance. In France, they speak french and live french. That is what is expected of those who visit or move there. Is this so wrong? I actually respect them for protecting thier culture. What is our problem?
Our problem, at least as far as I can surmise, and of course I may be sadly mistaken, is an over-abundance of "white guilt". You remember a few years back when Chelsea Clinton wrote a paper for school about why she was ashamed to be white? The thing is, it appears to me that here in the US, to want to uphold or maintain a European culture or way of life tends to get you labeled. It's perfectly okay for blacks to uphold African culture, or Asian people to uphold their particular culture (be it Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, etc), but being proud of being white is purveyed as inherently wrong and discriminatory.
This is reflected in pretty much all of our mass media. And the mass media, I'm pretty sure you'll agree, is in every home in every neighborhood in America and Americans spend way too much time engrossed in television. Matter of fact, I heard a statistic that said the average American will spend upwards of three and a half hours a day watching television! So it makes sense that the writers of the shows and the broadcasters of the news wield a power stronger than any sword. You know, the pen is mightier than the sword, in short.
Of course slavery was wrong, and I personally hate that our forefathers ever institutionalized it. Of course oppressing the native Americans was wrong. However, I refuse to carry a cross of shame over something that happened before I was born and had no control over. But thanks to a lot of people buying into the white guilt foisted onto them, it essentially boils down to "Euro is bad, non-Euro is good", and therefore the proliferation of Spanish as a second language in our country. Sure, it makes total sense for them to learn English, but then you'd have some mamby-pamby off to the side saying how you're "oppressing" these poor immigrants "forcing" your language on them.
quote: I have seen how Germany has changed over the years due to the `open border` mentality impressed upon them by the rest of the world after WWII. The TRUE German works hard and pulls their wieght. They had a nice closed system that is now being abused. Foreigners are moving there, taking advantage of a social system in place for those who truly need it when unemployed. (not common for a european) They get money for food, shelter and clothing, but most of the money gets sent out of the country to family back home. How long can you remove money from a system before it runs out?
If you can, try and look at some old dollars and money notes. It's interesting to note that old money had a written promise in being back up with gold. Now, just look at the money, no promise, so how can we know that it's even backed by anything?
What a lot of people seem to fail to understand is that a system only has so much wealth to begin with. If printing more money was a problem solver, then why can't these third world countries run their money presses double-time and pull their system into the modern world? That's the thing, the wealth is limited, and the same rule applies here. I can't hold it against a Mexican who sends his heavy weight American dollars back across the border to his family, and therefore tripling the value of said money. Does that make it right? No.
quote: Open the borders, but make the `New` Americans speak the language and be productive in our culture and society.
This is where my opinion differs slightly from your's. I say open the borders if you must, but only allow somebody into the country that can bring something to it. For example, Austrailia was like this for a long time, nobody was allowed to immigrate there unless they either brought a trade or a business with them. With our current situation, we're getting a ton of blue-collar workers doing jobs anybody could do, providing they're not lazy to begin with. The downfall of this is they will work for less than half of what an American born citizen would expect, and therefore they undermine and oust the black or white that could've done the same job because the employer is a moeny-grubbing tight-wad trying to save some dough.
In my opinion, our immigration policy is nothing more than modernized slavery. They get those immigrants into jobs, whether they're here legally or illegally, work them for peanuts, and screw over the citizens who need work as well. For this reason, I say the borders need to be closed, at least and until the population is on it's feet and not as dependant on the government. Like you said and I agree, there's only so much wealth to go around to begin with. I cannot blame a person for wanting to find a better life, but generosity can only go so far. If you owned the only swimming pool in your neighborhood, and it was a 100+ degree summer's day, naturally everybody would want to flock to your house. So who do you prioritize? All the neighborhood kids and their families, or the people living in your own home first?
quote: America is an interesting example. We do not have an `actual` culture. Ours is a melting pot. In other countries, they have a culture defined and they leave it at that. In America we must learn the balance of respecting other cultures as well as our own without losing each different culture. If you cannot respect other cultures, then you do not deserve your own. If you move to the States, show some respect for those who were here before you. The golden rule of every religion and philosophy in the simplest terms is this: `Live and let live`. We should embrace any new people that want to be a part of this wonderful country, but that is just the catch, `BE A PART OF THIS COUNTRY`
I couldn't have said it better myself.
quote: That means keeping U.S. dollars here and speaking one common language, while still keeping ones own culture alive. Those of you outside the U.S. have most likely seen the typical American tourist expecting english to be spoken everywhere. If more Americans spoke the language of the country they were visiting, dont they realize what a more pleasant welcome they will recieve in the country they are visiting?
Very well said.
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
[QUOTE] Sure, it makes total sense for them to learn English, but then you'd have some mamby-pamby off to the side saying how you're "oppressing" these poor immigrants "forcing" your language on them. [QOUTE]
They must realize that we did not force them to move to OUR country!
Lou, I also must say that I was mild with my view on open borders. I was afraid of being taken wrong, but I agree that maybe the border should be closed for a while. Dont we have enough people in this country already? I would like to know that my grandchildren can still be able to live on some acreage!
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
OH! Who the fuck said it is OK to have thier language forced on me! I live here!
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
Why dont we think a bit about the europeans that came here and BUILT this country. My parents came from Germany, and when they moved here they learned English. "We are in an English speaking country, so we must speak the language" What happened to these people? It is a huge slap in the face to all of those who came before to build this country into what it is now. My parents never had a utility or bank answering service say, "Press One for English" or "press Two for German" or Italian or any other culture that actually came here to be part of this country. I can only see this as pure selfishness. The real thing that I am afraid of is a revolution. Not all of us are willing to sit back while others change the world around them into something that they never wanted for themselves. I for one, am capable of martyring myself for the better of the population. What does this mean? It means that I am willing to fight to keep my rights from being taken to ensure that someone else has theirs. I will fight to the death. Just read the first few pages of the Bhagavad-Gita. If given the choice of keeping your land and lifestyle, or letting others take it from you, You are allowed to defend your existence by any means necessary. You can only be pushed so far before you push back.
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
"Welcome to America! If you do not like it as it is, dont change it, just go back from where you came!"
Our Customs offices should have this on a sign.
[ April 19, 2004, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neo: If we really want to raise some hell, lets start talking about the Jews! If we have nothing to hide then it should not be a problem, right?
Whoa!
My Brother, don't even get me started on this subject.
I will say this: I'd be cool with it. Now, whether or not Brother Wu is cool with it is up to him. His forum, his rules, and all that. If our discussion wound up kicking up too much of a mess, we may have to take it to PM's.
I'll also say this for the record: I am not an anti-semite. I wouldn't hate a Jew for being a Jew no sooner than I'd hate an eskimo for being an eskimo or an Indian for being an Indian. I do, however, hate Zionists. They are worthy of total and unabashed contempt, and yes there's a lot of Zionists who are Jews. But to say all Jews are Zionists would be like saying all snakes are poisonous, it simply wouldn't be true. Zionism isn't an exclusively Jewish thing either, there are a lot of whites, blacks, and Asians that are Zionist as well. I will show the Jews who act honorably the respect they earn, but I will not sit back, close my eyes, and make excuses for the Zionists that are hellbent on destroying every trace of European race, culture, and way of life.
Matter of fact, it was just last week I received an e-mail from a guy who was wondering if his anti-Israel stance made him an anti-semite. This guy was of Iraqi descent, both of his parents moving here when they were teenagers. I told him that Zionism is an enemy of anybody who wants to uphold his heritage and his ways of life, because it ultimately destroys anything that doesn't fall into pro-Jewish interest.
So I think we should make it clear that when we discuss the Jews, we're not doing it with an anti-Jewish stance, but rather an anti-Zionist and an anti-communism stance.
The ball is in your court my Bro. You have the mike, and the floor is all your's. Where shall we begin? Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
I only think it amusing how easy it is to ruffle feathers when the Hebrew topic comes up. The Bible was written for THEM! Not the rest of us. Do most of us even realize that? The Jews are gods chosen people according to the bible, but they do not acknowledge Christ or the book written for them. Why did so much of the white world turn Jesuit? If the Bible is not for the rest of us, should we worry about sins? Rhetorical question. Hehe.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: Lou, I also must say that I was mild with my view on open borders. I was afraid of being taken wrong, but I agree that maybe the border should be closed for a while. Dont we have enough people in this country already? I would like to know that my grandchildren can still be able to live on some acreage!
I understand why you'd soften your view for your first post in this thread. Why do you think I didn't even state my view when I started the topic?
You and I have this in common, because I too want to know the grandchildren I eventually have, or for that matter the kids I'll eventually have, will still be able to live on some acreage that is their's. It's not about hating on immigrants, matter of fact there's no hatred at all. It's about concern and worry over your own future and that of your descendants. Now, if only the general public saw it that way things would be a whole lot easier for guys like you and me. Until the tide shifts, we have to be ready to defend our views against the people who would like to slap a label on us to shut us up. Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
QUOTE "Now, if only the general public saw it that way things would be a whole lot easier for guys like you and me. Until the tide shifts, we have to be ready to defend our views against the people who would like to slap a label on us to shut us up. "
Lou, You have no idea how far I am willing to go to protect my world. When forced into a fight or flight scenario, I will choose the fight option, and will do so to the death. I will not give up my land, language or family to ANYONE!
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
Oh, by the way, if the general public saw what we see, we wouldnt need to discuss this topic. Do you think that the breeder having 15 children even has the education to discuss let alone understand such issues on thier own?
I want to know what way as an individual I can make a change or have some impact on our futures.
[QOUTE}You and I have this in common, because I too want to know the grandchildren I eventually have, or for that matter the kids I'll eventually have, will still be able to live on some acreage that is their's. It's not about hating on immigrants, matter of fact there's no hatred at all. It's about concern and worry over your own future and that of your descendants. [QOUTE] That was the most perfect statement I could have ever imagined!
[ April 19, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neo: I only think it amusing how easy it is to ruffle feathers when the Hebrew topic comes up. The Bible was written for THEM! Not the rest of us. Do most of us even realize that? The Jews are gods chosen people according to the bible, but they do not acknowledge Christ or the book written for them. Why did so much of the white world turn Jesuit? If the Bible is not for the rest of us, should we worry about sins? Rhetorical question. Hehe.
Damn good point to start from.
Religion is a subject I really love to study, and in particular Christianity because I'm a Christian myself. You are correct that the Old Testament was written for Jews. You can go back and read parts of it that is very discriminatory against us Gentiles. However, if you study the final books of the Old Testament, in particular the books of Ezekial through Malachi, it is painfully obvious that the Jews were really falling out of grace with God. Then, go and study the first four books of the New Testament, detailing the ministry of Jesus Christ and what He told the Jewish people. Here's a really juicy tidbit preachers of churches won't go out of their way to point out:
And when Jesus entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him. And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus said unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the childrren of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.Matthew 8:5-13
Now a lot of Judeo-Christian ministers shy away from verses like this because they contend that the Jews are still God's Chosen people, and of course their sheep-like congregation will believe it. This verse is one of many that illustrate otherwise. Judeo-Christian is an oxymoronic term if there ever was one. You might as well come up with an equally ridiculous title like Satanic Christian.
Just read some verses out of the Torah or the Talmud to see why the Jews refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Matter of fact, just study the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There is a crystal clear indication that Judeaism is dead in the eyes of God. He's not worried about blood-sacrifices or circumcisions. Jesus made this clear when He went into the synagogues and called out the religious leaders for being hypocrits and liars. He did the unthinkable, He criticized Jews (kinda' like now-a-days), and therefore got railroaded to crucifixion by a rigged jury.
You bring up a good point Neo, but if you study the Bible outside of a mainstream Judeo-Christian teaching that a lot of churches tend to push (they need to be politically correct if they want to stay open, right?) you'll easily see why the white European races bought into Christianity the way they did.
*edit: fixed spelling
[ April 19, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Lou Gojira ]
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
Lou, how about some of the other topics i added to? I cant wait to get some more feedback from you.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: That was the most perfect statement I could have ever imagined!
Thank you sir. Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neo: Lou, how about some of the other topics i added to? I cant wait to get some more feedback from you.
Certainly Bro, I'll be glad to add to them. But I have to admit, I'm pretty wiped out now because it's past my bedtime.
I gotta rise at 4 a.m., $#@%in' paper route.
Yeah, I have to say Bro, I think you and I are on our way to some really thought-provoking discussions. Now, if only I can ease back on drooling over barefoot girls long enough to get serious...
Have a good night Neo. I'll hit on some of your topics real soon. Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
I wait with baited breath. In the meantime I will partake in the foot festivities that got us here in the first place. Posted by leopardskins (Member # 1683) on :
one thing that hasnt been mentioned here is the marketing and media. The Latino population is a growing population here, indeed. The people who wish to sell products to these people find it easier to try to sell them stuff in their native tongue, so they put Spanish on the menu/ Tyme Machine, whatever. Makes sense doesnt it , if that is your market? So then we blame the people, using their native tongue which is promoted back at them to sell them goods? You tell me. AS english speakers, would you not want to have things in english in another country? Would you be more inclined to buy a product if it was pitched in English?
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
You may have a point with most folks. But as far as I am concerned, I personally would never live in a land that I do not speak the language. To expect them to cater to my ignorance would be more than rude. Growing latino population is an understatement. I dont care that the media makes it easier. I didnt mention that because it is not a legitimate excuse. Do you always do what advertisers tell you? Good for them for selling you products because they use your native tongue. That has nothing to do with your responsibility to those you share this country with by LEARNING ENGLISH! It is very simple logic to speak the language of the land you live in. I am not expecting anyone to give thier language up, just learn the language of the country you live in. Is that really so illogical? What country would I be in when the product is pitched to me in english? America, it is expected, in another land, I may feel better hearing my own language, but I will not lose sight of the fact that I AM NOT FROM HERE, these people are and it is thier country that I am becoming part of. If you are not going to be part of a culture or country you live in, you may be better off leaving. Will the French be pleased if I move there and start to lobby for English everywhere to make it easier on me and those who do not speak French. No. They will tell you that you are in France and they speak French. You can go through high school in California in Spanish. You are already teaching them, why not teach english first? A country cannot be united when there is a language barrier. Speak as many languages as you can, but we must all choose one so that we can communicate. Seeing as English was here first, and everyone already here speaks it, what makes anyone think it is OK to make the entire population change just because we have some new arrivals. Welcome to America! But if you cant understand that statement when living here, then we have a problem. Spanish is from Spanish speaking countries. Italian is from Italian speaking countries. We happen to be in an English speaking country. Do we need more explanation?
[ April 20, 2004, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
I guess a great example of the benefits of speaking a common language is right here! WE ARE COMMUNICATING! Does Australia and England have the same amount of grief over foreign languages taking over thier countries? I do not believe they will stand for it. Why should we? Dont we have some British friends to give us some feedback if this has affected your country?
[ April 20, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Pink (Member # 1577) on :
Lou, did Neo get you started or did you get Neo started on this topic? I am never going to hear the end of this now. LOL! -Pink
Posted by leopardskins (Member # 1683) on :
Neo< unfortunately, language constantly changes. this is life, sometimes it is more drastic than others. The fact that spanish is so widely spread here is reality. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. Same thing with Ebonics. Many people dont like this offshoot English, but it exists. Again, such is life. Being self righteous about the EnglishLanguage, where do you draw the line?> WHo are we to spell Colour as Color? Sceptre as Scepter? Change happens. I suggest that instead of being angered by it, accept it and move on. I really dont think that the "foreigners Expect the US to cater to their "ignorance" as you put it. If that is what happens, well thats just life. English isnt a language that is first in many countries yet it is taught to them in schools. Are they all going to be diplomats to the US ? Or will they emmigrate here? Most likely not.
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
I do not know the real reason that other countries feel the need to teach English. Not my concern. Where I live and how my life is affected by those around me is. Dont miss the point here. In keeping with live and let live, dont move somewhere and expect to change them. You may like change, good for you. Live your life that way. BUT, if you affect my life in doing so, and not living and let living, I have the right to react. In other countries they spell it `Colour`, but here in the good ole English speaking U.S.A we spell it `Color`. Dont get angry, just accept it, learn the proper spelling in your region, and move on.
[ April 21, 2004, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
Forced integration of language, culture and values lead to such hateful things as the K.K.K., Nazi`s, Terrorists and the like. These things dont happen when people leave things as they are and work within a system instead of trying to change it. I am not hateful towards anyone or anything, only embrace the right to protect what is mine. You need to take a large step back from the whole topic and look at the world and humans in general. There are always those who push, and what is the normal reaction? TO PUSH BACK! If we as people just stopped pushing our own onto others, we would not wake up these normal human aggressive/defensive instincts.
[ April 21, 2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by leopardskins (Member # 1683) on :
I disagree about the Klan and Nazis, they tend to hold onto what is "mine" or a tradition , more so than change. Look, I am sorry you feel threatened by this change USA , which has always been english speaking, save prior to the imperialism, when it was occupied by its native cultures. People speaking spanish isnt my problem really good for them. If they cant communicate with me as a result here in the US, such is life. there are tons of other people out there. I will talk to someone else. Speaking of talking to someone else.......
Posted by leopardskins (Member # 1683) on :
Cute link, may I improperly classify you as well? Great opinion from a site whos main statement is this: "This page is about me and why everything I like is great. If you disagree with anything you find on this page, you are wrong." Wow, sounds as logical as the racists you think I am like. This guy is more opinionated than me, but he doesnt even understand half the topics he talks shit about. BUT BOY IS HE FUNNY! Like an un-informed Dennis Leary. Too bad you do not see the point. Dont make me do something I dont want to, and I wont make you do something you dont want to. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH RACE? I could be talking about smoking laws or seatbelts or anythings else. Ease up on the racial projection crap. By definition, just acknowledging that we have differences is a racist act. I guess I am as racist as everyone else on the planet by seeing the differences in us. Do you not understand the difference between racist and hateful? This is why the whole language thing is so important, if you and I have different definitions of the same word, we will have problems communicating.
[ April 22, 2004, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
This link of his is even better! : http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=irule Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink. Thats why it is better to stick with the facts. this one didnt smell so bad: http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html Thanks for the great new site! And the stimulating conversation.
[ April 22, 2004, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
I figured it was only a matter of time before the racist accusations got thrown out there...
I don't know and don't care who the chicken-shit moron is who constructed and wrote up that page you linked to leopardskins (don't you just admire internet bad-asses and all their tough talk? ), but he's way off in any semblance of logic he pretends to have.
First off, the point about immigrants inherently working harder is absurd. By making such a blanketed statement like that, the idiot who made that page is just showing how uninformed he is. I have worked many different jobs, all blue-collar, and several of them along-side immigrants. I can tell you from personal observation that these "down-trodden yet so hard working" immigrants don't pull any more overtime, break their back, or go out on a limb any more than the whites and blacks that were already doing the job. What makes these immigrants so appealing in the eyes of an employer is not their performance! It's all about money. Should an employer pay an American born citizen $8.00 an hour if an immigrant will do the same job for $6.00? Oh yes, and here's why:
The Americans need the money more. I'm sure if I lived in a one-bedroom apartment with about twelve of my relatives, I too could easily live on $6.00 an hour. The fact of the matter is, I can't live on that amount of money, nor should I have to.
Why? Well, it's all about ethics, or morality you could say. Say for example's sake your parents are old and feeble, and you're given a certain alotment of money to take care of them. What will you do? Shack them up in some negligent retirement home where you don't know how well they'll be treated, or if they're suffering criminal neglect just so you can go out and spend the rest of the money on yourself? Or, will some morality kick in and you find yourself paying for a private nurse for at-home supervision, where you know for a fact your parents are taken care of and their needs are met?
By underscoring fellow American citizens and hiring in immigrants, all the employer is doing is looking out for his own best interests. He won't give a flying turd about how well the immigrants are doing the jobs as opposed to the citizens, it's about whether or not he'll be able to afford a new ivory back-scratcher or a new yacht once he see's the bottom-line in profits.
So Americans demand more money. Is this so wrong? When I worked at the Ann Taylor Distribution warehouse, I read a figure on how much the company CEO pocketed a year. Are you ready for this? $17 million A YEAR. Yet at the same time, this was the same company that "couldn't afford" a Christmas bonus to the employees, "couldn't afford" to give more than 30 cents a year for a raise to the employees, and also "couldn't afford" to keep everything in working order, thus preventing accidents (and believe you me, there were plenty of accidents because of bad equipment and conveyor lines).
Now, does it or does it not stand to reason that this CEO could still live like a king on $16 million a year, and reciprocate some of the money back to the employees that keep the company making money in the first place? Does this make these "lazy" Americans so vile and evil for wanting a nibble of the pie too? Nevermind a piece of the pie, just some crumbs to make them feel appreciated and let them know their work is noticed. This isn't the case though, and the employers are going even further and staffing with immigrants who are happy to get the $6.00 an hour instead of the $8.00. The same immigrants who won't make a fuss over low wages (their cost of living is drastically lower) and will send their dollars back across the border anyway.
I also find it interesting that the people who are so much in favor of immigrants taking jobs away from citizens are the ones who are least affected by it. I'll guarantee you that if half of these self-righteous loud-mouth's lost their cushy positions and fat paychecks, not to somebody who actually does the job better, but to somebody who will work for a lot less money, they'd change their tones real quick.
To imply that a person's problem with out-of-control immigration is racist is an arguement that is weak as water. It's a scape-goat explanation they throw out there because of the politically correct weight it carries, because they know most people would rather die before being thought racist in any way. It's a sad attempt at shutting people, who have every right to complain, up. It's also what what every minority group falls back on. But now, when you see these minorities raising the same kind of hell as the whites who have been ousted from jobs because of immigration, it makes the "racist card" more weak than it was to begin with.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink: Lou, did Neo get you started or did you get Neo started on this topic? I am never going to hear the end of this now. LOL! -Pink
I think it was sort of a mutual starting up Pink. Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by leopardskins: one thing that hasnt been mentioned here is the marketing and media. The Latino population is a growing population here, indeed. The people who wish to sell products to these people find it easier to try to sell them stuff in their native tongue, so they put Spanish on the menu/ Tyme Machine, whatever. Makes sense doesnt it , if that is your market? So then we blame the people, using their native tongue which is promoted back at them to sell them goods? You tell me. AS english speakers, would you not want to have things in english in another country? Would you be more inclined to buy a product if it was pitched in English?
No disrepect leopardskins, but it sounds like you're trying to avert the blame for a mass of people who aren't learning the language anyway.
To say their no-English speaking is a fall-back on the media and the advertisers sounds fairly reasonable, but it's not solid. For that matter, Pokemon is a Japanese phenomena from the foundation up, yet when they advertise it here in America for American kids, the ads, cards, games, toys, everything is in English. However, just because Bandai knows of an English speaking market, and caters to it accordingly, should they start making all their Japanese products of the same things in Japan bilingual? No. There are a lot of Americans in Japan, but Japanese is the native language. Like the saying goes: "When in Rome..."
All these advertisers are doing is exploiting what they think is an easy market. They're shooting for the quick buck, and that's about it. This is nothing new, hellfire, I can actually remember the Pilsbury Dough Boy rapping in a commercial one time! They were trying to "reach the African American market", but most blacks I know thought the commercial stupid and pointless, a slap in the face for anybody with intelligence.
Posted by Rockwell (Member # 1616) on :
If we had open borders we wouldn't be able to read stories like this:
Illegal Entry From Mexico to U.S. Rises
By OLGA R. RODRIGUEZ, Associated Press Writer
SASABE, Mexico - After a four-year decline, illegal immigration from Mexico is spiking as several thousand migrants a day rush across the border in hopes of getting work visas under a program President Bush (news - web sites) proposed. Many also are trying to beat tighter security to come in June.
The U.S. border patrol told The Associated Press that detentions — which it uses to judge illegal migration rates — jumped 25 percent to 535,000 in the six months ending March 31 compared to a year ago.
Near Sasabe, a town bordering the Arizona desert that's the busiest illegal border crossing area, an average 2,000 people arrive daily.
On a recent day, at a break in a barbed-wire fence outside Sasabe, about 300 migrants scrambled out of 10 trucks and four vans within 30 minutes with their smugglers, who led crowds along a worn trail. As the sun set, they disappeared into rolling hills that hide the treacherous desert.
Raudel Sanchez, a 22-year-old farm worker, said he wanted to get back to his job at a Minnesota ranch.
Sanchez crossed into the United States through Sasabe three years ago, but says the journey is getting more difficult. He walked three days in the desert and was out of water when he was caught in Arizona and deported.
Undeterred, he said he planned to take a bus to Altar, a northern city about 70 miles from the border where migrants hire smugglers. From there, he planned to head back to Sasabe and cross again.
"It's already very hard to cross, but it's going to be even harder," he said in Nogales. "I need to try again, at least one more time, and if I fail, I'll go back home."
Many migrants are betting on the approval of Bush's migration proposal, which faces an uphill battle in Congress. About 75 percent of those arrested are Mexican, while the rest are from Central America and other places, U.S. customs officials said.
In January, Bush proposed a guest-worker plan that would give legal status to undocumented migrants already working in the United States and to those outside the country who can prove they have been offered a job.
Because it's hard to get a job offer while in Mexico, many are heading north now, hoping to get settled before a program is in place.
Mexicans living in the United States have criticized Bush's proposal. Many say they wouldn't apply, fearing it could be a trap to deport them.
But in Mexico, the program has given many migrants hope that they might be able to seek something better north of the border, and that is enough to convince some to cross now rather than later.
"I want to try and make it to the United States to find out more about the permits because I've heard that with a job it will be easier to get" a visa, said Jaime Ulloa, speaking in Nogales after being deported for a third time. He is trying to get to Florida, where a U.S. farmer has promised him a job picking vegetables.
Mark Krikorian, executive director for the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that favors stricter immigration policies, said the rise in illegal migration also shot up in 1986 when an amnesty was announced.
"Illegal aliens will respond to the messages the government sends," Krikorian said. "When we send the message that we are thinking about amnesty, they decide it may be worth it to try to cross."
Illegal migration had been declining along the U.S.-Mexico border since 2000. U.S. border patrol figures show detentions dropped from 1.6 million in 2000 to 905,000 in the fiscal year that ended last Sept. 30.
There is no exact data on the number of people crossing illegally. But in an indication of increased traffic, 535,000 illegal migrants were arrested along the U.S.-Mexico border from Oct. 1 to March 31, said Gloria Chavez of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Bureau.
In the same period, the border patrol's Tucson sector detained 70,000 more people, an increase of 49 percent.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert Bonner attributes part of the jump to increased security. "The main reason we're seeing an increase in apprehensions is because the border patrol is more effective, particularly in the Tucson sector," he said.
But Mexican officials are also seeing an increase. Grupo Beta, a Mexican government-sponsored group that tries to discourage migrants from crossing and aids those stranded in the desert, said 56,000 migrants went through Sasabe in March compared to 41,000 in March 2003.
In Altar, a farming town that has become the gathering point for those heading to Arizona, street vendors sell backpacks, water jugs and salt pills by the thousands.
The modest homes around the plaza, crowded with triple-decker bunk beds, serve as makeshift motels for migrants. They're almost always at capacity, said Francisco Garcia, a former mayor who now volunteers at the town's only migrant shelter.
"We're a town with a population of 6,000, and there have been weeks when we have twice as many people," Garcia said.
Under new security measures, about 300 more U.S. border agents will be deployed by June 1 along the Mexico-Arizona border. The number of border agents assigned to the Tucson sector will eventually increase from 1,800 to 2,500, Bonner said.
Many of the additional agents already have been sent to the Tohono O'odham Indian reservation, an area west of Sasabe where illegal migrant traffic has ballooned, said border patrol spokesman Charles Griffin.
The heightened border security is driving more migrants to more treacherous desert routes between Sonoyta and San Luis Rio Colorado in western Arizona, said Enrique Enriquez, an agent with Mexico's Grupo Beta.
Grupo Beta plans to assign rescuers to Sonoyta in May, Enriquez said. Every year, hundreds of migrants die in the desert, where temperatures soar above 100 degrees in summer.
I think you just proved the point! Close the borders now!
Posted by Troylato (Member # 1688) on :
Ultimatly the cost of the crossings is in the millions a year in some states. Between the supporting both medically and education wise, it cost the states quite a bit of money as well as the taxpayers. Yes, everyone deserves a better life and each deserves an opportunity to do so, but at the same time when those that are already living in the state are paying the cost that the businesses should be paying, it becomes illogical. If the borders are kept open the government needs to do something to subsidize the states cost of the constant crossings. You have to ask, why are people coming here, and the main reason is to improve their lives. If the country that they were living in was improving, then they would not have to come here. If the US wants to resolve this issue either A. Pay the states and help subsidize the cost. B. Get with the leaders of the country that most of the immigartion is coming from and help make imporvements to that country to help the people. C. Make the country in which the immigration is coming from pay the cost which each state is incurring. or D. Close the borders until a better solution is figured out...
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This is far to intricate a topic for me. Until the mid 80`s we required Visas for all foreigners entering the U.S. Since Reagan did away with this, we have no way of tracing legal OR illegal immigration. In the current state of the world, does this make sense or is it in our best interests? Our overly lax border attitudes have also made an ENGLISH speaking country start to have Spanish as a main language. There are even schools in California that teach children in spanish. TEACH THEM ENGLISH! If I were to move to Italy, I would learn Italian, if I moved to France, I would learn French. I would not expect thier culture to cater to my ignorance. In France, they speak french and live french. That is what is expected of those who visit or move there. Is this so wrong? I actually respect them for protecting thier culture. What is our problem? I have seen how Germany has changed over the years due to the `open border` mentality impressed upon them by the rest of the world after WWII. The TRUE German works hard and pulls their wieght. They had a nice closed system that is now being abused. Foreigners are moving there, taking advantage of a social system in place for those who truly need it when unemployed. (not common for a european) They get money for food, shelter and clothing, but most of the money gets sent out of the country to family back home. How long can you remove money from a system before it runs out? Open the borders, but make the `New` Americans speak the language and be productive in our culture and society. America is an interesting example. We do not have an `actual` culture. Ours is a melting pot. In other countries, they have a culture defined and they leave it at that. In America we must learn the balance of respecting other cultures as well as our own without losing each different culture. If you cannot respect other cultures, then you do not deserve your own. If you move to the States, show some respect for those who were here before you. The golden rule of every religion and philosophy in the simplest terms is this: `Live and let live`. We should embrace any new people that want to be a part of this wonderful country, but that is just the catch, `BE A PART OF THIS COUNTRY` That means keeping U.S. dollars here and speaking one common language, while still keeping ones own culture alive. Those of you outside the U.S. have most likely seen the typical American tourist expecting english to be spoken everywhere. If more Americans spoke the language of the country they were visiting, dont they realize what a more pleasant welcome they will recieve in the country they are visiting? I could go on but I will see how this is taken. -Neo![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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), but he's way off in any semblance of logic he pretends to have.