Should there have been that war in the first place, do you think we should still be there?
Posted by Lord (Member # 2465) on :
Well we never left, weve been there all this time. The first gulf war was never ended so technically this is a continuation of the same war. A cease fire agreement is not a peace treaty. We should be there as long as it takes. We never left Germany and we havent left Japan why should Iraq be any different. Were still in Korea for Christ sake! If we were going to pull out we should have done that already. We never should have occupied in the first place if we were planning to pull out this early.
Posted by gs3647 (Member # 2418) on :
Leaving Iraq would be like walking away from a problem, but staying there is like fighting against an unlogical problem. There really isn't a good answer for this.
Posted by gs3647 (Member # 2418) on :
I gotta say goodbye to 2 of my friends, who are leaving next month. They said the food in the army... Posted by Lord (Member # 2465) on :
quote: I gotta say goodbye to 2 of my friends, who are leaving next month. They said the food in the army...
One of my best friends on this spining hunk of rock is over there right now. He would agree with your friends on that one. He did say that the food on the aircraft carrier was pretty good while he was there.
Posted by gs3647 (Member # 2418) on :
My friends are going by what they've heard. I may hear about the truth when they get back, if they get back, but that's just what they told me.
Posted by FTPHANTOM (Member # 47) on :
If the chow in the chow hall is bad,I'd rather eat an MRE,their pretty good Posted by 21ToeSucker (Member # 3187) on :
I wouldn't call an MRE good, but at least you know it's gonna suck before you eat it...
Posted by gs3647x (Member # 3290) on :
Yeah, I got an email from one of them, and they really hate the food there. I expect they're use to it.
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
I initially supported the war when they were looking for chemical/nuclear weapons. Although, I realize that one of the main reasons Bush started this whole thing was for the oil.
Personally I believe it would've been better if the administration had focused its efforts on finishing up in Afghanistan before looking at Iraq.
Posted by gs3647x (Member # 3290) on :
Yeah, I think so too. Money just means to much to Bush.
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
money, money, money... Ain't shit changed since the Egyptians...
Posted by lambskin (Member # 1542) on :
Question: How does Bush benifit from this Iraqi oil? Is he somehow aquiring the oil and making a profit from it? Is it going to help our country (because that sure isn't the case now at $2 a gallon)? Seriously, someone answer this question. How does Bush personally benifit from invading Iraq and supposedly acquiring its oil?
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
lol Sasha... You're mostly right, of course. Bush has many powerful friends and relatives, many of whom "contribute" to his campaign in order to see their greedy little plans get into action. (Side note: During the Vietnam war, the company who made the most money of all was Dupont, they make plastics, etc, including BODY BAGS, and they paid the Democrats... It seems Kennedy wasn't a saint after all,) So how does Bush benefit? He helps his buddies, the upper echelon of wealthy shits who helped to put him in office, thereby securing MORE time in office. Get it? NOW.... Sasha, do you seriously think that it is just because he is a "Republican"? And that somehow republicans represent big business entirely? Let's remove all party clouds, and see the sky here, the big picture. Which is that big money, whether it be republican OR Democrat, is still big money. Big money perpetuates it's own power, and where we have some, not ALL oil-money behind Bush, (as well as conservative religious bigot-groups, insurance money, and financial giants such as Citigroup,) we also have big-money behind the Democrats... Lawyers, for one, and their unions, insurance, oil, finance, etc. What IS the big picture? Let's pretend that the political system is a puppet-show stage, and oh, look at the little marionettes there dancing and play-fighting on the stage!!! How comical! What a great distraction from the PUPPETMASTERS, above and behind the stage and it's shiny curtain, each with a firm hold on a string. But wait... OMG, the strings are all crossed, and go to different puppets! Wow, how do the puppets move so gracefully, even though the strings go to different fingers on different hands? Look beyond the pupetmasters to their MOTIVATION. Power. Money. Greed. Has anyone ever read Ayn Rand? She wrote that book, (I wish I could remember the name,) but it was science-fiction, and there was a planet full of monkeys, (not a far stretch here,) and the most motivated, most powerful, most devious and bloodthirsty was one they called Belial. Now, this monkey ruled supreme, until another killed him/her, and became Belial. Belial was the monkey's own version of the Antichrist, hidden deep within EVERY monkey's heart of hearts... The primal urge to dominate. Are you getting it yet? We ALL have the capacity to shrug off our humanity, and go for the primal, rule-it-all, kill everyone savage gorilla that is within us, but to do so would doom us to be viciously inhuman, (or more human?). Whom do the parties serve? Whom do we all serve? Belial, the savagely dominant naked ape. To go out even further, (as if THAT'S necessary at this point,) Whom does Belial serve? Therein lies the rub. Like Bob Dylan says, "You gotta serve somebody," So Lambskin, try to look deeper than what is presented by this group or that group, and ALWAYS ask the question, "What is the MOTIVATION?" Use your heart to see, and look beyond the Five Senses. There you will find a non-material teacher and the truth. Existentialistic? You betcha!
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Again, I'm amazed... You are not only into football, and a sharp little thumbtack, but you are also well-read to boot! Oh yeah, and sexy! LOL I, too tend to get heated up when it comes to politics, I apologize if I got too deep here... Hard not to get charged up when discussing the "Public Servants". They bother the hell out of me, as most people don't know jack-squat about it, and they still vote. I truly believe that if people actually cared, the third-parties would see more response. Ah... in a time long-forgotten, people actually did care, and weren't so easily hoodwinked by these bogus "parties", and political parties weren't as entrenched as they are now. They had to actually "do" something to stay alive. That was how the Republicans got their start, as well as the Whigs, the bull-moosers, AND the Democrats! We certainly need a change here, and I'm afraid it will be DECADES before the complacency wears off, (not to mention that it would take some MAJOR catastrophy on a grand scale to get fat, lazy americans to move something,) and change will occur.
I am looking for the name of that book, with the monkeys and all, it could have been the Fountainhead... I have a job interview to go to, wish me luck!
Posted by lambskin (Member # 1542) on :
First, I'd like to give you some background regarding myself. I am in the medical profession. I am now 10 years out of high school and still finishing my studies (only 1 year and 4.5 months to go). Unfortunately, I am not as well read as some of you outside of medical journals and science texts. Maybe I too am a "public servant" because I get my news from watching CNN or reading the paper, but I am by no means uneducated or lazy.
Bush is not the perfect president. But I do not believe that the motive for every one of his actions is to better himself or his "buddies, the upper echelon of wealthy shits" While, they did contribute a great deal of money to his campaign, Bush's votes to win this election came from the mid west, great plaines, and the south. I know, I know, the right winged, conservative, Christian coalition. As much as I may need to read more into things, others need to stop creating conspiracies out of every thing they hear.
Off the subject, but just last night, the local news ran a story that the hospital where I am training is turning away patients, simply because we have long wait times and are full. This was created by the media reading into the fact that we have a long wait time in our ED and that some patients leave without being seen by their own choice. Our hospital is the only one in the county(as a tertiary care facility and level I trauma center) which can not turn patients. Yet someone looked into it a little deeper and created a conspiracty which was entirely untrue.
Anyways, that's just my more naive, closed minded view on things I suppose. Got to go to work in an hour.
Posted by 2 X 4 (Member # 2886) on :
If we had kept our efforts limited to Afghanistan and hunting down the Bin Laden Gang, I would have been okay with it, as long as we did not kill any civilians. But detouring into Iraq was a big mistake. We have lost 2000 or 3000 of our own servicepeople, we have killed 100,000 Iraqis (mostly civilians), we have and are spending untold billions of dollars on this failed enterprise which we could be using on revitalizing our economy and rebuilding our social safety net, and we have now lost a huge amount of the respect and admiration we once had from around the world.
In short, this is "Vietnam: The Sequel" and we have got to end this thing.
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
I know it'll never happen, but I have an idea that would virtually end war altogether. If a country chooses to use military force against another country, the politicians' military-age children will be required to enlist in the military and serve. Not in the national guard, and no cushy rear echelon job at division headquarters. Their ass HAS to be out on the front line with the grunts. Do you think Bush would've chosen to invade Iraq if it meant his daughters had to fight over there? I know, I know, it'll be a cold day in Hell and Sasha will come back from a jog with dry feet before that ever happens.
Sorry Sasha, I was just daydreaming about your sweaty toes again!
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Oh, lambskin, you misunderstood me. I was not referring to anybody but the ELECTED, public-office politicians here... Technically, since I paint and hang paper, I am also a "public servant", but not in the classic sense. I am/was in the service industry, as you are. Providing a "service". Now, as for that conspiracy rag, I don't buy into conspiracies per se, and I don't think Republicans or democrats are conspiring to take over the world... I also don't believe in the idea of a "right-wing conspiracy", that is too easy, and just some media perpetueted concept. Yes, there are those that would like to see every archaic sentiment in The Good Book rammed down everyone's throats, but since the very constitution on which this fine nation was founded on begins with the concept of religious freedom, that will never happen. It just so happens that the majority of Americans subscribe to Judeo-Christian beliefs, and try so very hard to "moralize" others.
No, I don't think you are expressing a naive and shallow viewpoint, either. The very fact that you are a foot-fetishist reveals your pragmatic and perfectionistic traits. This is a generalization, I know, but most fetishists are intelligent, articulate and deep digging miners in the caves of truth. Why else would they explore so fully something that calls to their attention? lol, I said most, not ALL. So rest assured that I am not so brainless as to believe what is presented in the hypno-boxes in living rooms across America. The media likes to blow up everything, just to get higher ratings, and advertising dollars, with little regard for the people they affect. On the other side of this knife, if it weren't for the media's constant probing, and subsequent uncovering of politicians' wrong-doing, where would we be? Try the New Dark Ages... Everything is necessary. Now, one thing I do believe, as I pointed out in my earlier post, is that groups of wealthy DO exert their will on the world through political pawns. (The puppetmasters)It has been said that "What is good for big-business is good for the American people." It has been, is and probably always will be that way. Does this decry a "conspiracy"? Not really. It shows us the very nature of a hairless ape who wishes to create what it wants in the world, be it individually, or collectively. So I say to you: OOH-OOH Ah Ah... got any bananas? Thanks for the stimulating conversation!
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
Cinema, simulated life, ill drama Fourth Reich culture - Americana Chained to the dream they got ya searchin for The thin line between entertainment and war
There be no shelter here The frontline is everywhere
Ahhhh good old cap'n DeLarocha
Posted by foolover300 (Member # 3018) on :
A summary of Bush: He is not a leader, he doesnt put the United States first, he puts his money-making first. Bush went into Iraq without the conclusion from the weapons inspectors even though they were only a couple of weeks away from concluding. If the weapons inspectors said Iraq did not posess weapons of mass destruction he'd have no reason to go in and get what he wanted (not the nation), so Bush went in, and now has the United States and Great Britain stuck in a 'second vietnam'. And it isnt going to end soon by any means.
I dont see how Bush was re-elected, and i thought it was funny how they didnt let fahrenheit 9/11 be broadcasted on American television as it would have exposed Bush for the corrupt person he is. I dont like him, i dont like his government and the relationship with Saudi Arabia is a little worrying.
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Oh, I have a 10 month old girl, (she is awesome!) and I am not that concerned about Iraq. My prediction: We will be out of there within two years, and although I'm sure we will be "tied to" the whole mess for longer. Is it threatening to me? No. I was scared to try and raise a kid in this world BEFORE the first Gulf War. Just based on American Society alone! LOL At least we didn't try to appease these killers, like most of Europe did. If they had their way, Saddam would still be in power, and Afghanistan would still be a training camp for these psycho jihadists. So the radical muslims don't like us and want to see our entire lifestyle DEAD, big deal. While I agree, Bush is an idiot, I don't think it's wrong to go kick ass in the Middle East or anywhere these malcontented neanderthals roam. It's time to evolve, people. Wouldn't you like to live in a society where you have to wear a head-scarf, and for what you do on your site, Sasha, they would probably stone you to death? I didn't think so. So it's still The Crusades begun by religious groups 1,500 years ago, big deal. If I had to choose a side, it wouldn't be on the side of the Islamic Fundamentalists. So Bush is a "Christian" Fundamentalist, big deal. Fortunately we live in a society where he and his religious-bigots can't have (as much of) an effect on personal freedoms. Yes, the patriot act is violating to freedoms, but it's better than a REAL theocracy. The fact is, there is always going to be some group that get's pissed about another group, and tries to wage war with "the enemy". The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Which would you rather be: A Nazi in Germany in 1944, or a Right-wing Republican in the States in 1944? If forced to make a choice, we go for the least offensive, which is what most are doing now. Sad, but true.
Let's look at the REALLY big picture here, we monkeys have been battling over land, resources, food, you name it since the beginning, and will continue to do so until our time is through. It's the nature of the beast, my babies. 1,000,000 years from now, it won't matter. We are still bound by our very nature. We need food, water, sex, and a cave to go to for safety at the end of the day, and that will never change. Unless, of course, we turn into zombies and roam the land looking to snack on living things... In that case we would only need "food". LOL
Posted by Pink (Member # 1577) on :
Well stated vasduten!
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
While Bin Laden and Al Quaida were DIRECTLY responsible for the attack(s) of late, dudes like Saddam and MOST of the middle-Eastern kings, Shas, etc. are funding them and giving them space and materials to train their soldiers.
I wasn't trying to soap-box you. I'm not brainwashed into thiking that "war" is a good thing. I see that it is human nature to war, and my point was that you can keep whining about things you don't like, but it won't help a thing. People can't help being what they are. A starfish in the ocean doesn't try to climb trees, and monkeys don't spend much time under water.
The world will continue to move on, and unless YOU personally go out there and get control over the ENTIRE world's money, oil, food, water,and that seemingly LIMITLESS reserve of human meat-robots, and then change things so that those who "have" stop exploiting those who have none, and the good guy always wins, and the lottery is won by EVERYONE, and it rains jelly-beans and people go around whistling "Zippety-Do-Dah" out of their assholes, then just try to accept humans for what they are. Monkeys. You'll feel better for it, I'll guarantee. I used to get all bent out of shape about how un-fucking-fair the world is, and would spend lots of time spewing vitriol about the Right Wingers, the Wealthy, et all, and found it did nothing to help. In time, I began to see that the folks on the other side are also fuckeroonies, just the same. Liberal douches and right-wingers suck equally in my eyes, they are the same. So I began looking for a deeper, more universal understanding of things. There is so much more to life than this tiny slice of time and space we occupy here, and knowing that helped me.
I was just trying to share.
BTW, the spreading of "ideal" and "wisdom" is so perverse, it would gag a maggot. But that's how players roll, beyotch! (I'm so funny, I just drew a parallel between 50-cent and GW Bush... that's funny.) Yes, they are deceptive, and greedy, and murderous theives and that's how it has and will always be. So you don't want to see how human nature is directly responsible for all of your dislikes about the world, and that's too bad. I don't want to see you upset, even though I don't "know" you. It bums me out to see anyone so down about things they have little or no control over. My dear, I want to help you and anyone else I encounter here to RISE ABOVE. Also, the amount of casualties is so small here as compared to most ALL wars tat have ever been fought. If that's your gripe, then why not complain about the hundreds of thousand dying in trenches filled with poisonous gas in WWI? Why not complan about Ghengis Khan decimating countless millions in his quest for control? Or since I'm at it, why not complain about Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Hirohito, Vlad the impaler, Napoleon, Ramses, Rufus, Constantine, Pol Pot, and anyone else who kills in the name of... While war is painful, and there are REAL losses happening here, and that is truly sad, prostletizing on some internet forum about "the bad guy" du jour is belittling to you. You are better than that Sasha.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: I think I'll grab a banana and a vine and swing outta this thread like the good MONKEY I am.
Does this mean you're finally wearing that "Nova from the Planet of the Apes" outfit?
Sasha, Dear, you and Vasduten both make some good points, but obviously this topic hits a little too close to home with you like it does with me. You notice how I'm pretty much non-existent in topics about the Iraq war lately? You and I have talked in private, so you know what I think needs to be done to stop this madness, but like Vasduten pointed out, raising hell about it on a forum sure ain't the way to go about getting it done.
The powers that be wanted a war, and now other peoples' kids have to die for it. I believe that everybody responsible will be repaid a thousand-fold in good time, and all their money, power, political sway, what have you, won't mean a hill of beans when that day comes and its time to pay the piper. Of course it doesn't really "help" right now, but it's a comforting thought, for me anyway. I'm not sure where you sit with any beliefs you may have, but I hope you can take some comfort in them.
Our hands are tied...sad but true... Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sasha:
quote: but like Vasduten pointed out, raising hell about it on a forum sure ain't the way to go about getting it done.
I KNOW THIS! If I want to express my views here or anywhere else.I WILL..My views and opinions are just that..MINE
Big frigin deal if I spout my mouth off here.....It may not help like you said.but it sure doesnt hurt either!
Hey now, I'm your friend, no need to get upset.
I totally agree with you that it doesn't hurt to vent, and if venting makes you feel better then by all means do so. I'm not trying to tell you otherwise.
It's just that you sounded offended after Vasduten's reply, and that's the thing about venting on subjects like this on a public forum; people are perfectly entitled to agree, debate it, or totally counter it, so taking offense if they do any of that doesn't do anybody any good, that's all I was saying.
I was just trying to play the peace-keeper. Sorry if I came off all wrong.
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