If you had the power to deport the 14 million illegal aliens, would you?
Posted by DJ (Member # 1698) on :
Posted by DJ (Member # 1698) on :
What answer was there to be surprised at?
I intentionally took a neutral stance on the subject with a smirkish little evil grin???
That doesn't mean that I am for or against the subject.
I love you Sasha, you know that. Could you please write Mandy's name on your butt? (how was that for a topic changer)
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by sanlucas: If you had the power to deport the 14 million illegal aliens, would you?
Yes.
*runs from Sasha*
*edit: Actually, I'm pressed for time, or I'd go into an explanation for my reasons. I'll be glad to defend the stance if the topic continues. Just let me say now that bigotry isn't one of those reasons...if I were a bigot, I'd be at the wrong forum because from what I've observed us European whites are pretty much a minority around here. Posted by DJ (Member # 1698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sasha: As you can see I edited my thread....looks like you read the original... I changed it after i read it.
Didnt mean to attack the....
You can attack my anytime you want!
This is one of those subjects that I need to stay away from for many different reasons.
It is a very good topic and can stir up a great debate.
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Begin a minority myself, and actually having a father who had to come here illegally for a while just to get ahead in life (Im mexican), im gonna go ahead and say No to that. We dont take jobs, we just do the jobs the majority is too lazy to do or think theyre too good for. Recently Ive been sparked by immigration, racism, and affirmative action debates, and it annoys me to see people so close minded because for once in their life, theyre at the short end of the stick. It is a VERY sensitive issue with me, and I dont mean to offend any majority people here, but I've had to deal with way too many racist and prejuciced idiots in my life to let this topic slide. Feel free to argue my case. 14 million people leave? The economy drops. Where they gonna go? Theyre not all from Mexico. South America, Asia. Think about it in reverse. If the US were a third world country and you were one border away from doing the same job for A LOT more pay, would you do it? Dont fucking tell me you wouldnt.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by mystik: Begin a minority myself, and actually having a father who had to come here illegally for a while just to get ahead in life (Im mexican), im gonna go ahead and say No to that. We dont take jobs, we just do the jobs the majority is too lazy to do or think theyre too good for. Recently Ive been sparked by immigration, racism, and affirmative action debates, and it annoys me to see people so close minded because for once in their life, theyre at the short end of the stick. It is a VERY sensitive issue with me, and I dont mean to offend any majority people here, but I've had to deal with way too many racist and prejuciced idiots in my life to let this topic slide. Feel free to argue my case. 14 million people leave? The economy drops. Where they gonna go? Theyre not all from Mexico. South America, Asia. Think about it in reverse. If the US were a third world country and you were one border away from doing the same job for A LOT more pay, would you do it? Dont fucking tell me you wouldnt.
Well, it looks like I'll have to keep my opinion to myself on this one...
*edit: Ah to hell with it, I can't keep my opinion to myself on this issue either.
Now Brother mystik, before I say anything, just know that I don't have anything against you or your viewpoint. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel much the same way, if not exactly the same way...
Here's where I take exception to your stance, however... "We dont take jobs, we just do the jobs the majority is too lazy to do or think theyre too good for."
This is a two-fold problem here, because I agree that you're not "taking" jobs, but at the same time just because these bureaucratic paper-pushing employers are only out for the almighty dollar and cashing in on this "legalized slavery" doesn't make this a good benefit for anybody but the rich. You're saying that people are too lazy to work certain jobs, but the fact remains that yes, there are some lazy Americans out there, but then there are some hard-working Americans that can't make ends meet going on the wages they're paid for certain jobs. I'm a single man having to work two jobsd to make ends meet, and I'm not living some posh life-style. If a man moves on from one job where he was previously making $7.00 an hour to a job where he can make $9.00 an hour, how is that being lazy?
At the same time, if a bunch of immigrants get into a workplace making the $7.00 and never complain about it, but the Americans working along side them do complain, again, how is that being lazy?
Every-so-often you'll see a story on the news where a group of 25 or so immigrants are getting evicted from a one bedroom apartment...naturally, under those living conditions an immigrant can afford to live on "slave wages", whereas a person and their family with house and car payments can't.
I understand your anger at people blaming immigrants for the whole problem, but to be fair to these likewise angry people (because you're only asking for fairness in return, right?), you need to cut them a little slack and understand that it's only human to take issue with what you SEE. Folks aren't seeing these fat-cat cocksuckers cashing in on the illegal immigrants willing to work for next to nothing.
I understand wanting a better life for yourself, therefore wanting to cross a border by any means necessary. However, where the government is wrong is in allowing so many illegals to "slip by". Personally, I think the borders are being purposefully weakened because, again, there's too much money to be had for the few in illegal immigration. This "elite" few don't give any more of a shit for the common man or woman's plight in the midst of all of this.
Here's what I see as a solution. I could be wrong, but here goes...
Instead of allowing people to have their jobs underbid, and therefore putting them out of work, hurting American people, if the American government is so concerned with the problems of these third world countries, send help to them! Like the analogy goes, give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day...teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime. In other words, instead of some rich-fuck saying: "Yeah, cross that border and work for next to nothing. I don't give a shit about this man and his family making enough to get by, you illegals will save me millions of dollars in man-power!" Rather, he should be saying: "Well, I really wanna help, but I gotta pay the guys I got already. Tell you what, I'll start a branch of business where you live, and together we'll work to build a better tomorrow for you and your family!"
Taking the rights away from one person just to give them to another doesn't benefit anybody, it just pulls everybody down, except of course the people who stand to save money and cash in on some more.
Another thing I take offense to, not so much your opinion mystik, but the opinion I've seen out of people when this subject comes up. They tend to think that if anybody doesn't welcome illegal immigration with open arms, particularly white people, it's because they're "stupid bigots". The fact remains that it's not a race thing. Not when you see black people, white people, Asians, and Hispanics underbid by illegal immigration and raising hell about it together. The spin the media puts on it makes it seem like it's just "stupid, closed minded" white people who take issue with this, but that's because nobody feels sorry when white people get done wrong. In fact, a lot of the time folks will come away from something thinking it's a good thing if white people are done wrong...but that's beside the point.
The economy may drop if 14 million people suddenly get deported, but it would recover. And at the same time, if the government were to not only deport these people, but to HELP them establish something when they got back home, God forbid, their country may even move up from a third world status!
Again, turning your attention the other way when illegal immigration is going out of control for the most part isn't going to solve anything...it's just a quick fix, and quick fixes tend to wear off all too soon. Where will the immigrants go when America dries up? People seem to think this is a land of milk and honey, but like any other nation, we've only got so much wealth to go around. Why not use this wealth a little more wisely and to help these nations, rather than punish our own people? Because that's what's happening.
I heard a figure a little while back that stated that the minimum wage is lower now than it was 30 years ago. How, then, will any of the common class hope to get better wages if illegal immigrantion will keep these wages at the bottom? Again, nobody really benefits.
Okay, it's waaaayyyy past my bedtime. I haven't even proof-read this yet, but I hope I got my point across.
[ January 19, 2005, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Lou Gojira ]
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Thats understandable, I know your not naive to this or the matter. You prove your point well, and I totally agree. I understand that a Hispanic working for 7.00 an hour and doesnt mind is better for business than an American wanting 9.00. People will scrounge for anything they can get, but the problem doesnt lie within immigration really. Theres always going to be someone willing to work for less, and you are a BIG minority Lou, in that you understand the situation maturely and fully. It's hard though...illegal immigration isnt the sole reason that minimum wage is so low. Did you know that C.E.O's make so much more now, then they did in 1998, that IF they raised minimum wage pay like they have done with C.E.O pay, minimum wage would be 17 dollars an hour. 17. Thats ridiculous. All that to make a handful of white guys richer. (I dont mean that in an offensive way, but lets face it, theyre all probably white) Rich people say that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because they "invest" their money and the poor are stupid and spend it. What do you fucking do when theres no money to invest? Lets say you make 800 every two weeks. A common salary. Equates to 1600 a month. Minus Food, taxes, rent, utilities, gas, insurances...its real easy to invest money if you were given it or have it. But for those of us at the bottom, who have no money and are surviving on small cash flow, we cant really have investments. I still think we live a much more meaningful and interesting lifestyle though.
Posted by dazza11 (Member # 2567) on :
heres my view i live in australia we have our fair share of illegal imagrants coming to our GREAT shores.Iam concerned with most of them coming from nations with extreme hatred for westerners i dont want illegal imagrants coming here.Illegal imagrants should be sent back to where they came from come here legally thats fine.
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I think that in the next 2 yrs there will be mass deportations, I think it`s gonna bring about more negatives than positives, however there is only one way to find out.
[ January 29, 2005, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: sanlucas ]
Posted by Troylato (Member # 1688) on :
Lou has a point. If the countries that people were deporting from were prosperous contries with the freedom that we have here in the states, then people would have no reason to come here.
Posted by imation_pc (Member # 1480) on :
I too, like mystic, wouldn't be here if it werent for an illegal immigrant. Right now, its really late and I have to be up again in a few hours. I will post more tomorrow though. Having said my first statement, I'm sure that most of you know how I probably feel about this subject. Also, being from South Texas, about 2 or so hours away from the Mexican border, may also have helped shape my thoughts on this subject. Well, till tomorrow!
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I believe in the next 24 months we will witness mass deportations. We are going to help Latin America write a new chapter of it`s history. Once this people go back to countries that can not handle them, it wont take long for the civil unrest to boil over, 14 million warriors with nothing to lose. After a few years of bloodshed, they will have a better future, I just hope Castro`s ideas dont find a way to spread all over South America, the ride could get a little bumpy even for us.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by sanlucas: I believe in the next 24 months we will witness mass deportations. We are going to help Latin America write a new chapter of it`s history. Once this people go back to countries that can not handle them, it wont take long for the civil unrest to boil over, 14 million warriors with nothing to lose. After a few years of bloodshed, they will have a better future, I just hope Castro`s ideas dont find a way to spread all over South America, the ride could get a little bumpy even for us.
How do you figure? Both Bush and Kerry (while he was running) made their stances clear on immigration, which were both for it. Kerry even went so far as to compare immigration to the Civil Rights movement, I guess to tug on any heart-strings people may have to soften any oppositional views, though I personally fail to see the comparison. Their stances were only a reflection of the Republican and Democratic parties as a whole, so I personally don't see any mass deportations any time soon, if ever.
I went back and re-read what Maddox said on this subject, and while I usually blow off whatever he has to say about anything (except for his review of the Ikaruga video game *lol*), I had to agree with his stance...that being, if people are going to come into America illegally, and the government is going to be so relaxed about it, then employers should be forced, by law if necessary, to pay illegal immigrants the same wages was American citizens. This would at least destroy the levy these employers are using in cashing in on "legalized slavery", and level the playing field for all workers, whether illegal immigrants or American citizens.
As for Castro's plan, I'm not really sure what you're refering to. The only thing I can think of involving Castro and immigration was his actions during the 70's, where he sent the criminals and inmates from insane asylums first when America said it would allow immigration from Cuba. Is this what you're refering to?
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Affirmative Action is another issue closely tied to this one, and it reminds me of Dave Chapelle's show, where he was brought on Donahue to discuss affirmative action. I got a good chuckly out of that, especially when someone tries to say how unfair affirmative action is. Immigration is touchy though. I am up to date with Mexico, my family has a house in Mexico, we go to Mexico twice a year. It's not getting better...its corrupt guys. It's so fucking corrupt. The Governor of Zacatecas, a state in Mexico, at one point made more money than Tony Blair. A government official getting paid how much in a 3rd world country? There are thousands of kidnappings and ransoms a year. A year back Mexico held a HUGE protest in Mexico city about that very same thing. The police are lazy. They are corrupt. Its disorganized. President Fox is trying his hardest to restore the country, they hired ex-New York Mayor Guliani to help restore Mexico City. I'm not trying to say that all hispanics should rush the border to get a better chance, but it's just so sad over there. Such disorganization. That is why people come here, to live a better life. Even if it means coming here illegally. If my father hadnt done that...I wouldnt be typing this to you today. I can't say that illegal immigration is a grand thing, it isnt. I just think there should be a system devised to measure immigration, or something I dunno. Im tired...
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I meant his leftist ideas Lou, if all this people have to go back in a short period of time we will be bringing comunism back from the dead!!! That`s not taking into account AL QAEDA,I bet they are hoping to see 14 million people hungry and angry down there. We are the biggest investor in Latin America and Spain it`s the second,lots of targets to destroy,terrorists would have a lot to do for a long time. 20% of our oil comes from there,Iron,Copper,Bauxite,Uranium,Natural Gas,foodstuffs etc. Irak it`s the size of Texas and has a population of 25 million and we are having some problems there. Latin America has a population of 380 million and is 2 and a half times the size of the U S, invading it once the trouble starts would be suicide,specially now that we are at war and our fiscal deficit is at an all time high.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: Irak it`s the size of Texas and has a population of 25 million and we are having some problems there. Latin America has a population of 380 million and is 2 and a half times the size of the U S, invading it once the trouble starts would be suicide,specially now that we are at war and our fiscal deficit is at an all time high.
Good point...I think you answered your own question with this point, meaning there won't be any mass deportations, and especially not anytime soon.
I see where you're coming from in acknowledging Castro and his leftist agenda...but keep in mind that he wouldn't be where he is today without the American government helping put him there...I don't see him attacking America on his own accord, he strikes me as a dog on a leash that can bark really loud and that's about all...now if he had somebody within the US government give him the go-ahead to start some shit, that'd be a different story, but as for him capitalizing on a possible disharmony down the road, that disharmony involving a mass deportation, on his own, I personally don't see it. I could be wrong though...
It's interesting that you mention Iraq...as I read your response, and with mystik's response being fresh in my mind...I can't help but wonder why the government is so set on "liberating" a country half-way around the world when we've got a country in some seriously dire straits right on our land's border...I wonder how far HALF of the billions of dollars that have been spent on this Iraq war could've gone in helping Mexico. I mean, here are a group of people who would do anything, risk life and limb for a better shot at life, and our government is more preoccupied elsewhere...
That's where I'm saying looking the other way when it comes to illegal immigration is a quick fix, but not a long-range cure...what about the people who are too old or sickly to brave a trek across the desert, or get stuffed into a semi-tractor trailer for a ride across the border? What about them? All the while greedy capitalists are cashing in on this problem, American citizens are getting underbid for jobs, illegal immigrants are working as "legal slaves", and the other people back home are still in trouble with no prospect of hope...
Oh well, I'm rambling now. Sorry to hop up on the soap box. Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lou Gojira: I can't help but wonder why the government is so set on "liberating" a country half-way around the world when we've got a country in some seriously dire straits right on our land's border...
Like many others have voiced before me in other forums of discussion, I say it's the oil. Which is probably the biggest underlying cause of our tensions with the middle east: They are fighting for land for religious reasons, the United States is fighting for it to ensure the survival of its own economy. If Mexico had the oil reserves that the Middle East had, the United States government would be pumping billions into its economy like one of those old lady chain-smokers at a Vegas slot machine. Same reason why no major action has been taken against Kim Jong Il and his public announcements of developing a nuclear program. How much oil is in North Korea? There you have it.
Anyways that's not the topic of this thread. I'm opposed to illegal immigration but not because of any perceived burden to society. I'm against it merely because it's unfair to people who take the trouble and time to go through the naturalization ceremony, to work through the proper channels, attend meetings, take tests, whatever it is that folks do when applying to become legal citizens. If you take two people of the same skill-set and education background, one a legal immigrant and one illegal, applying for the same job, what are the chances of Mr. Legal getting that job since the employer will have to pay him at least minimum wage? It's a question of employer ethics and as Lou has pointed out, too many employers are more than willing to cash in on the illegal labor force.
Arguably, it's also unfair to illegal immigrants. Alot of employers who exploit them have the attitude that "Bad jobs are better than no jobs at all." Until the government takes a hard-line stance in punishing such employers, it'll continue.
Posted by Sasha (Member # 1842) on :
quote:Like many others have voiced before me in other forums of discussion, I say it's the oil.
Thank GOD you answered this like this...and not with..Bush wants to spread "FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY" throughout the middle EAST. We want to bring hope to a land that has none..WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT!!!!!!!
Oh yea.this post is about Mexico..Four more years of BULLSHIT!!!!! Oops there I go again....Sorry..
FREEDOM-FREEDOM-FREEDOM-FREEDOM-FREEDOM-FREEDOM Just preparing my exceptance speech for Mr Bush...
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I am glad I started this little thread. I have a question for Tweener and probably for everybody else. Let`s take a second and imagine you are from a Latin American country,the economy of your country colapsed,the products your coutry sells are selling at a very low price.Your country doesnt produce any oil and the price of oil has skyrocketed,your country cant pay the interests on it`s debt and it defaults on it. Inflation soars and you loose your job!!! You decide you have to go to the U S to work and send your family some money to survive,you are still in your country. You go to the U S embassy to find out what you have to do to go to the U S legally. Now everyone,tell me what do you think the embassy would tell you? Be honest,let`s see what you think you would be told.
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
Woo Sasha! Easy there, killer. Don't start slapping people with your flip-flops! Unless they like it...
Honestly sanlucas, I can only form a vague idea of what the US embassy would say. The biggest resource of south american countries (and many 3rd-world nations) is said to be unskilled labor. Assuming I was in this group, I believe the people at the embassy would tell me one of two things:
1. They'd probably tell me too bad, go home. I'd have nothing unique to differentiate me from the masses of others seeking entry.
OR
2. If I was processed for citizenship, it'd most likely be a slow, drawn-out process. Government is sluggish here, and for proof all one needs to do is go stand in line at the post office or their local DMV.
Since I'm not in that situation, I don't know how I'd go about solving the problem.
Posted by Sasha (Member # 1842) on :
Answer yourselves one question.Why do Mexicans come here illegally?? Why is there not a system set up for Mexicans to become citizens just like any other person coming from other parts of the world...My husbands family came from Mexico in the 40's,became American citizens within 5 yrs with no problem..
Assignment....what is so different in 2005 then it was in the 40's..your answer is why Mexican people come here illegally..ya gotta dig deep to get the "real" answer
Hint#1The corruption does'nt only lie within the Mexican Goverment..Although ,Mexico is one of the most corrupt places I've been too... bottom line:There a marriage made in heaven somewhere here. Read between the lines..........
Hint #2 FICA, SOCIAL SECURITY and MEDICARE(who's pocket do all un-filed income tax returns go into...Hmmmmmmm....Mexico....NO.....
The # thing that I think SUCKS!! For the Actual American citizen is...The cost of health care that we pay(what my hubby and I pay for health care is insane, and thats getting it from my employer)...while an illegal can have a baby at the county hospital for only $50.00.This effects all of us! This is one of the main contributing factors to the rising cost of health care in the US.
Something does have to be done about the illegal imagration in the US...
Your Papers are due at the end of class.....
[ February 02, 2005, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Sasha ]
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
If you have no skills you cant come into the country legally. After the engineers design a product somebody has to put it together(unskilled workers) I strongly believe that if they could come into the country legally they would go back after a few years without bringing their families here. From 1948 until 1969 28 million mexicans came into the country legally,24 million went back to Mexico.If they could go back and forth legally to visit their families those families would stay there,it`s cheaper to raise a family there. There is no visas for unskilled workers,they just dont exist. If their families dont have to come here their children wont go to school here nor will they go the the emergency room. Those workers would pay taxes. As for the ones who are already here: If they have been here for 5 yrs or more I would give them a work permit renewable every year for 10 yrs.After that if they paid their taxes and stayed out of trouble I would give them a green card. As punishment for breaking the law I would fine them $1000 per year for those ten years. They would receive $2000 credit to be used for tuition for english classes. After 5 yrs of holding a green card I would tell them they have to become U S citizens or face deportation. P S Sasha I want to suck your toes so bad!!! That is all LOL
Posted by Sam 4 Feet (Member # 2222) on :
whilst they are illigal they dont have rights because they dont officially exist, so I think we should take advantage of this because its cheap labour and there not much space because its 40 to a house anyway so to keep all the immigrents. without them we would have no ice crea men, no corner shops or anything.
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
quote:Originally posted by mystik: [QB] We dont take jobs, we just do the jobs the majority is too lazy to do or think theyre too good for.
What an insulting remark. That is just a liberal-douche rationalization used to excuse millions of freeloaders. It's even used by conservative rich land-owners who want to improve their bottom-line in developments being sold for the highest market value. An untrue statement, and ignorant, at BEST. OMG, I am a 4th generation painter/paperhanger, and am constantly losing work to illegal immigrants. They will work for 10 hrs. a day, at $10.00/hr., tax free, and send most of that back to Mexico. I now have to find a new career. Once upon a time, a US CITIZEN could have a trade such as this, and actually support his family. I know and love many mexicans, most of which are here illegally, and don't blame them at all. If the roles were reversed, I would do the same.
But what if, (and this is a HUGE "what if",) the US dollar somehow shrank to be less than that of the peso, (I DID say it was a huge "what if",) and Americans started going to mexico to work in sweatshops, host cockfights, process chicken, build pretty much everything, etc., and lowered the rate of pay for labor to the point where most non-liscensed tradesmen and women had to get out of industries they had spent most of their lives mastering and receiving good pay for, and all of a sudden had to go find new careers because thier politicians and elite rich were making more money off of illegal labor than having to pay competent tradesmen, and women(!)and were too busy being greedy to do anything about enforcing immigration laws. You would not like it, not one little bit. The very concept of having a "country", and being a citizen of said country, is to be able to prosper and live your life as far as your government does it's JOB to see that become a reality. If Mexico doesn't have it's shit together enough to increase GDP, and make Mexico a better place to live, then that's too bad. Apply for citizenship, and do it right or don't come at all. If y'all didn't flood the border every damn day, there would be better chances of actually getting citizenship here. Now, since the illegal immigrants use our roads, trains, water, etc, and do not for the most part pay any taxes, the rest who do end up suporting that. If you do not belive me, try slicing your finger, going to the emergency room, and waiting amongst 60 illegals with bellyaches loking for free healthcare, and then getting charged $1500.00 for 10 stitches. There are enough freeloaders who ARE citizens, dogging the system to death without 150 million more from Mexico showing up to do the same. There is no question in my mind, if I could send them all back, I would. In fact, I would love to see a national sales tax, so that at least we could recoup some of their earnings in the form of taxes. The US gives out $100 BILLION in aid every year, the most of ANY country in the world, and AS IF that isn't enough, there is always someone crying "foul", and asking for MORE... How much can the US be held responsible for?!? It's time for the governments of the world to step the fuck up and actuall do their own countries some good!!! I would send illegals back to all their countries, and build a 1/4 mile high wall around the US. It worked in Troy for 600 years.
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
BTW, Lou, you are dead on the money. It's is ALWAYS about the money!!! and mystik, read Che Gueverra, and get back to me. If conditions in Mexico are so bad, and corrupt, then a revolution is way overdue. Read up on the French Revolution, while you're at it... I would love to see heads roll down my street. The gap is widening between rich and poor, and every one of us, legal or illegal are getting the shaft. My last post was to show how angry I am at MY OWN GOVERNMENT for not doing it's job right, not a diss on the illegals. Power to the peephole!!!
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
vasduten, once again you are so correct that it hurts! LOL!
The truth always does....
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
quote:Originally posted by vasduten:
quote:Originally posted by mystik: [QB] We dont take jobs, we just do the jobs the majority is too lazy to do or think theyre too good for.
What an insulting remark. That is just a liberal-douche rationalization used to excuse millions of freeloaders. It's even used by conservative rich land-owners who want to improve their bottom-line in developments being sold for the highest market value. An untrue statement, and ignorant, at BEST. OMG, I am a 4th generation painter/paperhanger, and am constantly losing work to illegal immigrants. They will work for 10 hrs. a day, at $10.00/hr., tax free, and send most of that back to Mexico. I now have to find a new career. Once upon a time, a US CITIZEN could have a trade such as this, and actually support his family. I know and love many mexicans, most of which are here illegally, and don't blame them at all. If the roles were reversed, I would do the same.
But what if, (and this is a HUGE "what if",) the US dollar somehow shrank to be less than that of the peso, (I DID say it was a huge "what if",) and Americans started going to mexico to work in sweatshops, host cockfights, process chicken, build pretty much everything, etc., and lowered the rate of pay for labor to the point where most non-liscensed tradesmen and women had to get out of industries they had spent most of their lives mastering and receiving good pay for, and all of a sudden had to go find new careers because thier politicians and elite rich were making more money off of illegal labor than having to pay competent tradesmen, and women(!)and were too busy being greedy to do anything about enforcing immigration laws. You would not like it, not one little bit. The very concept of having a "country", and being a citizen of said country, is to be able to prosper and live your life as far as your government does it's JOB to see that become a reality. If Mexico doesn't have it's shit together enough to increase GDP, and make Mexico a better place to live, then that's too bad. Apply for citizenship, and do it right or don't come at all. If y'all didn't flood the border every damn day, there would be better chances of actually getting citizenship here. Now, since the illegal immigrants use our roads, trains, water, etc, and do not for the most part pay any taxes, the rest who do end up suporting that. If you do not belive me, try slicing your finger, going to the emergency room, and waiting amongst 60 illegals with bellyaches loking for free healthcare, and then getting charged $1500.00 for 10 stitches. There are enough freeloaders who ARE citizens, dogging the system to death without 150 million more from Mexico showing up to do the same. There is no question in my mind, if I could send them all back, I would. In fact, I would love to see a national sales tax, so that at least we could recoup some of their earnings in the form of taxes. The US gives out $100 BILLION in aid every year, the most of ANY country in the world, and AS IF that isn't enough, there is always someone crying "foul", and asking for MORE... How much can the US be held responsible for?!? It's time for the governments of the world to step the fuck up and actuall do their own countries some good!!! I would send illegals back to all their countries, and build a 1/4 mile high wall around the US. It worked in Troy for 600 years.
Well I dont know what to tell ya buddy. Didn't mean to discriminate or insult you or your race, but it's damn true. Much like you believe that not all hispanics are here giving you the shaft, I believe that a lot of whites are too lazy to do these damn jobs. Im not saying you are, but a shit load of them are and you cant deny it. America has gotten lazier, and illegal immigrants have capitalized on that. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that we should open the border up and let everybody come in, they SHOULD crack down on how many come in. My problem is that when people try and put up an argument about illegal immigrants taking Americans jobs, its irritating when I know damn well these people would rather be sitting on their ass watching TV than working. Most of the people on welfare are white. Another line that is irritating: "150 million more from Mexico" For one, there is hardly that many Mexicans here, and again is a stereotype. That all illegals are from Mexico. It's hard on both sides though...there are a lot of hard working people over there who want to come here and make money. And they do, wether it be working in a supermarket, cutting grass, contracting or whatever. At the same time, America, for the sake of money, is taking advantage of the fact that people from other countries are willing to work more for less money. Don't blame the supply, blame the demand. Why doesnt the US do something to companies like Dell, Microsoft, Compaq, Sony, etc? Instead of keeping the customer service jobs here in the US that would provide millions of Americans with jobs, they send em to the middle east, so that people there will do them for a fraction of the price. I don't know. There's so much shit going on that it's hard to deal with it all. Didn't mean to offend, there's is just a lot of lazy whites out there that need someone to blame. Why not blame the hispanics and blacks? If you're hard working like you and Lou seem to be, then I wish you the best and I do believe its not fair to you. But that can't be said for a lot of the American population who do a mediocre job and expect excellent pay. I'm done for now.
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Mystik, I got the 150 mil figure from the Census Bureau, I'm not making it up. Also, you're only half-right. Yes, there are lazy assholes here, who stay on welfare, et all. Yes, they complain about the illegals taking our jobs. ("took 'er jobs!") I still don't think it's fair to a taxpaying citizen to have to suck all of this shit up. Have you been to the emergency room lately? My GOD! I went in for stitches and there were AT LEAST 80 mexicans there... OK, maybe a couple were Ecuadorean, or from Chile, but seriously. All of them waiting for free medical help. And getting it.
I saw the bill for my ten stitches, and it was $1064.00 My copay: $100.00
Now why would ten 1/2" long pieces of nylon, 25cc of lidocain, and an hour of someone's time cost that much? Gee, I don't know, maybe... Cost deferrment? On to ME?!? Fuck that shit. There is not legitimate benefit to having millions of illegals here, I'm sorry. Oh, BTW, not all illegals are hispanic? yeah, I see a ton of Canadians here illegally working for $8.00/hr. Also, there is a growing number of Inuit coming down the West coast looking for jobs in the fish markets... PA-LEASE... If you actually read my ramblings, you'd see that I wasn't BLAMING anyone but the wealthy fucks making cheese off of them. I was actually compassionate for once, and you go off and try to reiterate your Wack-ass point. Problem is, I DON'T CARE about Mexico's economy, or it's corrupt-ass govt., or it's refugees. Let the people come up and fix the shit. Fuck Mexico. Fuck the bougois bog-trotters. Mystik, get your head out of your ass. You are NOT downtrodden, and have it WAY nicer than any of your ancestors did, so can it. Stop trying to champion a causeless cause. Nobody cares about how shitty Mexico is, or it's inhabitants. You get no pity from me. Your post rants on and on about w"whites" blaming others, and in it you do nothing but blame "whites", and throw you useless stereotypes around AS IF this somehow justifies what you are: A racist. Blow me. This is my last word on this topic, and I am unanimous in this.
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
LOL. So angry. That's what seperates an understanding person like Lou, from a person like you. (Hey that rhymed!) I didn't ask for sympathy, nor did my country, especially not from you. I wasn't trying to attack you, or whatever background you came from, I'm just stating my side of the story. I'm looking out for my skin, and my back. If that means you pay 1000 dollars for 9 stitches, then so be it. I dont care. You want to try and do something about it? Go right ahead. You cant. You wont. You'll just sit there and complain to your friends about it. No need to be so hostile towards me, I didn't kill your father. You have deeper problems than worrying about illegal immigrants taking your jobs. How bout gettin some education? I am. You think an illegal immigrant can take a job at an Architecture firm from me? lol. A racist? I never called you a racist, so why the attack on me? Judging from those horribly put together sentences you've got going, you are nothing but a disgruntled white guy, mad at the system because you can't seem to make ends meet. And that's fine by me. I'm sorry to any (with the exception of this guy) if I offended your race or whatever you believe in, I'm just stating my opinion. Can't please everyone, and there are sure to be some disgruntled people along the way. Same with affirmative action. I deal with racism a lot more than you do man, so just relax and go tell yourself how right you are. I'm going to go back to my racist ways, with my racist food, and and type on this racist computer and drink my racist coke. ::chuckle::. Sad to say, but you sir are the racist. You are the hostile one. You are the angry one...not me. Sorry to the rest of the forum for this rambling, I'm done with you anyway. Try and enjoy your life. I do.
Posted by Neo (Member # 1891) on :
So many things to be angry about, but not enough time in ones life to fix them all.
Dont be shocked or surprised when someone is angry.
Denial, anger, acceptance.
You may finish the phases, but you still get angry at what you see.
The anger comes from the frustration of being smart enough to know you can't do anything about it!
Even knowing full well that things cannot be changed, some folks can't just sit back silently as they watch thier surroundings changed involuntarily.
Monkees have feelings too, and anger is one of them.
Now its time for some monkey lovin`................
[ April 05, 2005, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Neo ]
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: Even knowing full well that things cannot be changed, some folks can't just sit back silently as they watch thier surroundings changed involuntarily.
Well said Brother Neo.
And the word "involuntarily" describes this situation to an exact T. Am I the only one who takes particular issue with the fact that the border opening situation is something that never comes up for vote with the public? Even more, I just love how the media plays it all up like it's always and only "stupid white bigots" who don't like the idea of it all. Like I've said before, I'm around black people all day long at my job, and I wish you folks could hear what practically all of them say about this as well...my point being, this is not a "'stupid, lazy' white people needlessly hating these 'honorable, hard-working' illegal immigrants" thing, it's about people having their country purposefully changed by the New World Order Gang, and all done in the name of the almighty dollar, under the guise of "equality"...and that's all it is. If these fat-cat richies didn't stand to line their pockets even further in all of this, you can bet your last dollar they wouldn't give no more of a hoot about "equality" than a dog caring about where he pooped last.
But, the thing that racks my brain is: what can be done about it? Voting? First of all, it never comes up for that. Secondly, what are the alternative options? Protest? Riot? Revolution? All three things would land a person in jail, and then what?
So yeah, I'd say a person, or rather the people, have every right to be angry, seeing their nation purposely changed and the citizens are getting their hands tied and mouthes gagged in the process. Freedom? *lol* Sh-yeah right...
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Yep yep. It's tricky to talk about..and listen to. America has it better than the rest of the world...so why is it that these countries can't get their act together and become intelligent enough to elevate their status. Mexico is bad. I was there twice a year, every year for the first 17 years of my life. Since I haven't been as much, but it annoys me to see how unintelligent the people are over there. The governor of Zacatecas at one point, was making more money than Tony Blair. How the fuck does that happen? One measly state in MEXICO, and he's making more money than one of the heads of Britain. Revolution won't happen...too much corruption over there. The Peso is 10 for every American dollar. It was 7 before. The government over there really has no idea what their doing, and even worse the people have no idea that the Government is clueless. There hadn't been a change in the political party in over 100 years. The PAN party, Vicente Fox, finally won the election, and things were going to get better. He's a great guy, just has no idea how to fix things, where to start, what to do. They have potential, just no brains to utilize it. I can't change a damn thing...just got to flow with the system until I die. Hopefully leave my legacy in the houses and buildings I create...
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
I'm not angry at immigrants, just at your narrow and offensive viewpoint, mystik...
Yes, I was offended when you blamed "those lazy whites".
Sue me. Stop buying into whatever media-driven buzz-phrase gets you off the hook for being a racist.
And yes, this monkey is angry at rich bastards who only lust after more money, and let the "little people" suffer. Oh, the POOr wealthy... Boo-hoo-hoo...
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
I didn't say all whites were lazy man relax. It's just that a lot are. Can you deny it? I'm not denying that hispanics like to get free benefits. That doesn't make it right. I'm not here to make enemies man, I'm just stating my view, and yes I agree with you. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, it's a damn shame. You're the first person to ever call me a racist, even people with much more compelling arguments than you have put forth, but that's fine. If that's what helps you go to sleep at night then go right ahead. I think I'm done with this topic in general for a while...discussing this, affirmative action and music is so difficult. Most of the time it's just not worth it.
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: I didn't say all whites were lazy man relax. It's just that a lot are. Can you deny it?
How about this; since you're asserting that so many white people are lazy, and you've done so a few times now, then please, show some proof. You can make a nasty generalization like that all day long, but without anything to back up the claim, then yes, mystik, you're sounding very racist. I'm one of the last guys in the world to call another person racist in their beliefs because I think it's usually nothing more than a black mark to be slapped onto a person to try and shut them up. God knows I've been called a racist so many times in debating people that I'm literally immune to it. However, I'm not saying you are a racist, but I am saying I can see how you'd be thought that way.
You say most white people are lazy. Fair enough. Now, what if I started making claims that most black people like to steal cars, or that most Asians are sneaky, or most Jews are money hungry, or most Mexicans are packing STD's, making these claims over and over, and didn't back any of those claims up...I'd be thought a racist in seconds flat and rightfully so, because they're just nasty stereo-types that are blanketing and demeaning.
Being a blue collar white person myself, I can attest to working along-side about every different creed of people you can imagine. Hard physical work, not office work (though that stuff is hard in its own way too), I'm talking getting your hands dirty, using your muscles, and usually winding up with a pain in your back at the end of the day. I can tell you from personal observation that I've seen MANY a white person, male and female, bust their ass just as hard as the Hispanic they're working alongside (and for that matter, many a black man and woman busting their asses too, many an Asain, etc). I've busted my ass too.
So, please, if you don't mind, and it's not asking too much, stop talking that way about "most white people" when you're not backing it up with either personal observations or figures. Also, please, if this isn't asking too much either, accept the fact that other people, not just white people, take issue with illegal immigration. I know it's easier, maybe even fun to an extent, to demonize the opponents of illegal immigration, if a white face is tacked onto it, but that's not a fact.
I agree with you that these opponents are targeting the wrong people, because I sure couldn't hold it against a person for wanting a better life for themselves and their kin, and these opponents should be targeting these chairmen and CEO's and whoever else who are outsourcing the businesses and/or hiring illegal help.
But again, to make a blanket statement about "most white people" makes you no better than somebody who blames the illegal immigrants solely for jobs getting taken away or underbidded. Both mind-sets are prejudicial, and both mind-sets are unfair and biased, and how can any of this mess even start to get resolved if we've got two false negativities clashing over it to begin with? Two wrongs have never made a right, at least to my knowledge.
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Im sorry, I didnt mean to come of as racist. It's just that around these parts, where there is a large hispanic population, most of the white's that try to provide an argument against immigrant's are very...well lazy. These are the same people who say they need work, higher paying jobs and such, but don't want to do the work required to do so. I don't mean to generalize, but I can't help but if I become generalized myself. I did some research on the subject actually, and 82% I believe of the hispanic believe that there is too much illegal immigration. So really you aren't alone. Once again, I don't mean to generalize white's or anything like that, and if that's how it came out then I apologize. Please Lou point out where I said most white people are lazy. I didn't. I said a lot are. Most of the people on welfare are white. These are the same people who blame immigrants for the lack of work. That's who I refer to. The argument you compelled doesn't make much sense when you're arguing against something I never said. I'm in white circles every day...I have to be. And I'm just curious as to how far my last name can take me if you catch my drift. A hispanic will never get to the point that a white man can...once again, I didn't mean to offend and say "all white people are lazy". It's just that the one's who feel like their too good for backbusting work need someone to blame, so why not illegals? I respect you and vasduten if you are part of the working class, 9-5, working your ass off to put food on the table. You've taken my statement's out of proportion, and if anywhere you think I implied that the majority of white's are lazy I apologize for that; not a racist just a fucker who's been discriminated far too many times.
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
How much longer will this issue be ignored by the government, going back onto topic? Honestly, what is a good solution? Kerry wanted to have a "card program" where people would come in legally for a while, work, then go back. I don't know if I fully agree with that take on it, but it's an idea. Since I dont follow the Republican party, what has Bush proposed to do about it?
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: I don't mean to generalize white's or anything like that, and if that's how it came out then I apologize. Please Lou point out where I said most white people are lazy. I didn't. I said a lot are.
Okay, I'll concede that point. You didn't say "most", that was apparently my reading into you saying "a lot", and until I understood that you were refering certain circles of white people you're around, and not white people in general, I wasn't clear and assumed you were throwing the net of judgement out on all of us Caucasians. Apologies from me as well Bro.
As for your welfare numbers, I'll agree with you there, the numbers themselves are there, but that's not really accurate, believe it or not. What you need to do is take the welfare numbers and then counter them to the actual population numbers. You're correct, there are more white people on welfare than any other race, but at the same time there's a larger white population in this country. I can't recall exactly who was at the top of the most welfare recipients list about two years back when I did this comparison myself, but per capita whites were pretty low ranked.
Anyways, again, please accept my apologies for misconstruing some of your statements when I wasn't perfectly clear on them to begin with. I should've asked you to clarify a bit better before I started drawing conclusions.
Thinking about it, I think you and I are a lot alike in this. You say you've been prejudged, and I believe you and I can say the same thing. You see, I'm kind of a "good ol' boy" type of guy...Southern heritage, deep Southern drawl in my speech, not a lot of money, blue collar until the day I die...the full nine yards in other words, and I too have faced some very mean and degrading stereo-types out of people...so as a result, I guess my antennae are a little extra sensitive at times as well.
Peace. Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Hey its all good man. I didn't mean to get things all stirred up in the first place, so I guess things got blown out of proportion a bit. No biggie. Prejudices will exist till we die and beyond. I apologize for generalizing to a point, sometimes things get deep to the point where it gets confusing. Not just immigration and affirmative action, but the legal system too, which is another issue I've been struggling with. If 1 guy thinks God shouldn't be in the Pledge of Allegiance, and 100,000,000 think it should be...how does he win that? Ties in as well to those who sue for any God damn thing...
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Now we're talking...
First, thanks to Lou for having the patience to spell it out. My 1 year old daughter is sick, so the past week has been hell on earth for us... She's up 3-4 times a night crying ans screaming, nd even though the wife and I take turns getting up, neither of us is sleeping enough. So I apologize for getting miffed.
Mystik, I really wasn't blaming hispanics, or anyone but the rich on this one.
My rant about being a 4th generation painter was to provide an example of where the labor market is heading. I thought it did a good job, and did not point the finger or try to demean anyone. When someone comes out with a blanket statement, and tries to purport some skewed consensus view of a situation, (i.e. immigration,) one can only expect to see a rather harsh reaction to it. That's because most folks don't want to have their couterparts going around entertaining half-truths and all. I understand what Mexicans experience very well, I have many hispanic friend here in Atlanta. (The BEST party I've EVER been to was put on by Colombians. The beer flowed freely, and those grills NEVER shut off until 4 AM!!!) I wanted you to understand the whitey's P.O.V., that's all. Now that we've all got our sides out, and much like Elrond's meeting at Rivendell, here we are, what do we do about it? What CAN we do? We could all get very wealthy and start pushing other socialites around at high-society functions, and then go to Washington and lobby for the exploitation to stop. (I now, I'm daydreaming again...) The truth is, it IS a direct result of the wealthy pushing their weight around in the capitol, and until folks actually PHYSICALLY try to stop others from immigrating, and cause a fucking RIOT, and lots of people die, then nobody will care.
Welcome to America. Have you ever seen footage of chickens looking at the light and then they get their heads lopped off? The light is the T.V., and the chickens are the ignorant masses. Hehehe... The Matrix may have shown a PHYSICAL depiction of people being stuck in cocoons and being used for batteries, but in reality they are kept in mental cocoons and worked to death. Just so much enrgy in the form of LABOR. Somewhere, the devil is laughing so hard he is peeing his pants...
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Sorry to hear about your daughter. And yeah, I would be frustrated if I was you. Didn't mean to say "Stop bitching" or anything, because it is unfair. I don't know what can be done, Kerry's plan was a bit odd, but hell, it was still a plan. Guess it's to be ignored until this whole Iraq mess is over...
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
Sorry to hear about your little girl Vasduten, I hope she gets better ASAP.
Well, before I say anything on the topic, I just wanted to take a minute and thank you guys for all this disagreement blowing over. If we were talking in person I'd buy everybody a beer right now.
As for what Bush had planned, honestly mystik I don't know. I remember reading something about him granting automatic citizenship, providing they're working or something like that, but this was easily over a year ago when I read article, and it was just a quick read as I was bagging the papers for my route (back when I was a paper boy for a second job). If he had any kind of update to the plan, or if it even got carried out or attempted to be carried out in the first place is beyond me.
I think you're right, we're going to have to wait until this mess in Iraq is finished up first before we see anything...
Posted by Sasha (Member # 1842) on :
I picture you guys sitting at a round table drinking beer and smoking cigars...GOOD OL' BOYS CLUB!!!!!!!!!!!!
ahhh...I have three Queens to your three Jacks......Ahh FUCK!! Pay up now buddie...
Question for you guys...Which one of you just won the hand???
just an observation from a girl. Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: Question for you guys...Which one of you just won the hand???
Nobody, IMO. We're just debating the different sides of the issue. What I like about these kinds of talks though is that you tend to find more like-minds than opponents, really, no matter what side of the fence you sit on. Posted by Sinnister (Member # 2394) on :
It always amazes me how some people can feel so strongly about issues involving people of color.
It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of the Native Americans who had their land completely stolen from them, or the Indigenous peoples of Australia and how they were virtually driven into extinction for their land.
It's difficult for me to understand the "concerns" of the American citizens when history teaches us that immigration (whether legal or not) ALWAYS serves to better a country. Most people are ill-informed, some misguided, some just go with what they here on the radio in the drive in to work. Read about history. That's my advice. Not just Amerian history.
The cultural beliefs, attitudes and lifestyles brought by a people to a new land change the very landscape of the country for ever. I can think of no incidents throughout history where a country is now worse off as a result of illegal immigration (or in some cases down right land grabbing).
I'm not gonna get into affirmative action though, cause some people really get heated and forget to have an opinion, taking the easier route of echoing the sentiments of a certain political party.
Posted by Rockwell (Member # 1616) on :
I say we take down the fences and fire the border guards! Let anybody come over, just think of the possibilities!!!
For example:
I don't have the news article, but a truck driver was convicted for the death of lots of illegal immigrants when they died from it being too hot in his trailer. I can't recall how many died, though it does make for the beginning of a joke: How many illegal immigrants can you fit into a semi's trailer?
Now picture this...
Another semi pulls up in downtown Dallas, Texas that is, and aboout noonish... BOOM! Terrorist attack.
Well we lost Dallas, a shitload of of people, but at least more immigrants can walk over and take their place. "I'm sorry Billy, but your daddy won't be coming back home from work ever again. Fortunately we have Pedro here and he'll be your new daddy."
So in a nutshell, if we don't tighten up our immigration policies and watch our borders then our enemies are going to take advantage of the situation. It's so easy for a truckload of, and I'm not pointing fingers, Mexicans to get over here. I imagine it would be just as easy to replace them with a bomb, maybe even a nuclear device. If we don't watch our borders then eventually immigrants will stop coming here anyway... Think about it, would you rather be poor and miserable or have money and be in constant fear of being killed in a terrorist attack?
Posted by Frank the Poet (Member # 2400) on :
Lou, I firmly believe the moderators here are chosen for their intellect,wit and ability to articulate. The manner in which you conducted yourself throghout this very much heated debate proves my theory. You handled yourself like a true gentleman( never angering or uttering stupidities) and hit every point you made with pinpoint precision. Someone stated the U.S. economy would drop if the 14 million illegals were deported(which is not such a bad idea) no-no, our rate of unemployment would become non-existent. The only economies to suffer would be the mexican and south american countries because their economies rely so heavily on the U.S. dollar. I often say if you are not willing to live for and yes die for this country, our country Lou, then "GO HOME" you are a selfish thief of the dollar and not a generous giver to the well being and safety of americen society. It is getting very late and I am tiring for I to work 60-70 hours a week. In closing I am not going to buy you a beer Brother Lou, oh-no it's Johnnie Walker Blue for us.-Frank
Posted by Hal (Member # 3484) on :
quote: I often say if you are not willing to live for and yes die for this country, our country Lou, then "GO HOME"...
Where do you go if you are an American but don`t want to die for this country?
-Hal-
Posted by Frank the Poet (Member # 2400) on :
simple question= simple answer - you are not trully an American. You and your family are in the position in your lives RIGHT NOW because of the BLOOD sacrificed by AMERICAN men and boys spanning all U.S. engaged wars. If someone is not willing to make the same sacrifice for the children of this country and for future generations then swallow your pride and leave.-Frank
Posted by Hal (Member # 3484) on :
Then I´m glad to be living in Germany.
-Hal-
Posted by Sasha (Member # 1842) on :
Friggin Mexican CONSTRUCTION workers downtown! Not that the WHITE construction workers dont gawk. But the friggin MEXICAN Dudes are PIGS!!!!!!!! Most, not all, look at women like we are whores.Their culture must be big time repressed down in MEXICO...Not being a biggot(My hubby is MEXICAN AMERICAN) just telling it like it is.. Mexican Guys look at you with that glare like they want to FUCK you right their and now. At least show some grace.NO... THEY LOOK YOU RIGHT IN THE EYE and swack their lips whisper shit like chupa me verga and puta.All that nasy crap...WITHOUT RESERVATION!
I know ..I just got 5 guys fired this last month for this very reason...It wasnt just me, it was lots of the girls at our office complex..EVERY FUCKIN DAY!
And I'm not buying its me wearing short skirts and high heels..NO WAY JOSE! HA HA A PUN
If the borders are to be opened there better be a control yourself like a human and not an ANIMAL class before they become citizens.
This is a reality about a majority of these MEXICAN men coming from MEXICO Especially the COUNTRY and not CITY GUYS..SEXUALLY REPPRESSED MEN to the point of them being almost like animals..
Hey I know white Anglo Saxons can get their FREAK on, but these guys from across the border take the cake...
quote: I am not going to buy you a beer Brother Lou, oh-no it's Johnnie Walker Blue for us.-Frank
Whoa whoa....If your pouring the BLUE label..Please pour me one..
[ April 21, 2005, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Sasha ]
Posted by Frank the Poet (Member # 2400) on :
Lovely Sasha,and therein lies the problem. I totally disagree with sinnisters point of view. At the turn of the century when a multitude of human beings legally immigrated to this great country, they brought with them skills and a desire to learn the language. They respected this country as their new home and they built it. And these were not third world countries. Now we have people illegally migrating from mexico and south american countries,many of which are third world status. Most of whom are ignorant and uneducated with absolutely no skills to offer. The majority of which works a few years,greedily and selfishly sends the american dollar back to their country and leaves. This is becoming perpetual. They have no respect for this great country or its citizens as you so frustratingly pointed out. Hell,they don't even bother to learn the language. The government must recognize(and you know they have) and rectify this problem before matters worsen. To get off the subject,so you have an affection for fine scotch Sasha,is it not the nectar of the gods,the great elixir. Sorry Sasha no Blue label for you,that bottle is soley for brother Lou and myself. For you and I Sasha it's Louie the Thirteenth-as friends of course.-Frank
Posted by Frank the Poet (Member # 2400) on :
And one more thing Lovely Sasha,one of my favorite expressions- You can take the ANIMAL out of the jungle,but you can not take the jungle out of the ANIMAL.-Frank
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: Lou, I firmly believe the moderators here are chosen for their intellect,wit and ability to articulate. The manner in which you conducted yourself throghout this very much heated debate proves my theory. You handled yourself like a true gentleman
Thank you sir. Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
I can't recall if it's been discussed in an earlier posting on this thread, but I say it all points towards education, or the lack thereof. It's easy to see that the better educated a country is, the stronger its economy. I've heard, and anybody who knows better can correct me if I'm wrong, that the highest required level of education in Mexico is in the 6th grade. If this is the case, there's the problem right there! After the 6th grade, most kids are pulled from school to help out with the family. The United States faced similar problems a century ago, when school attendance wasn't mandatory. The result was an economy reliant primarily on agriculture (family farms) and unskilled labor, such as the early 1900s factories where workers and their families were moved into cramped, sub-standard factory-owned tenemant buildings. In order to truly become a developing nation, a country must have educated citizens, otherwise the situation will just perpetuate itself. I'm not a politician, and I don't presume to know everything that Vicente Fox has to deal with, but that's what I'd look to reform, were I in his place.
Back in college, I read an article about 3rd-world nations' dependence on the United States and other economic powers in one of my cross-listed business/political science classes. The analogy the author gave is one that's stuck with me in the years since, and it goes something like this:
Picture the United States as a rubber liferaft floating in the middle of the ocean. Surrounded by this liferaft are people treading water; the people represent struggling 3rd-world economies. There are far too many people to fit in the raft without capsizing it, so what can you do? We simply do not have the resources to support everybody who comes to us for help. The only alternative is to teach these countries how to swim, to provide for themselves.
It's just a theory of mine, and I could certainly be wrong, but I believe that with education comes opportunity. If these countries can create the opportunity within their own borders, there will be a severe drop in immigration. I know... easy to say, virtually impossible to execute. If anybody has a better idea, I'm all ears.
Now join hands with me and Lou while we sing "We Are the World"
Posted by Frank the Poet (Member # 2400) on :
Tweener,you hit the nail on the head. It angers and frustrates me so when I hear the words"lazy americans" they don't want to work. It is built into the American culture that each generations responibility is to better the next generation. For example,an italian baker with a high school education works extremely hard so he can send his son to college then medical school. Because of his extended education he works with his mind and has the ability to enhance the lives of the next generation. Education is the key to a strong and stable economy.-Frank
Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote: Now join hands with me and Lou while we sing "We Are the World"
*LMAO*
I have to warn you my friend, I can't carry a tune in a bucket. Can I just lip sync? Posted by Sasha (Member # 1842) on :
Lou is a stud... Now get the paper and get back into bed!!!!!LOU! Posted by Lou Gojira (Member # 983) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sasha: Lou is a stud... Now get the paper and get back into bed!!!!!LOU!
Me? Stud?! *LMAO*
Sasha Dear, not only are you a visual tour de force but you sure know some nice things to say. Thanks, but I think if the stud title goes to anybody, it'd be Photo Guy, because when he goes back to bed, unlike me, he's got you there waiting for him! Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Oh yes, Congress slips a driver's liscence clause into effect, which would make it illegal and therefore harder for illegals to get a liscence to drive here, and Vincente Fox, President of Mexico comes out and sqawks about U.S. immigratin policy... And I quote: "My hard-working Mexican brothers and sisters will do work in the U.S. that not even the BLACKS will do..." If I was a hard-working black person I'd be pretty pissed at that statement... Wait a sec, I'm not black, and I STILL feel ill when I hear that kind of talk, and by a "Presidente" no less. He goes on to complain about driver's liscences, and hey, wait a minute, Mexico has the SAME law on the books to keep illegals IN MEXICO from getting driver's liscences there... WOW. This topic was a YEAR ahead of it's time. and sinnister, try emmigrating to France, you cock-fag. I'm sure they'll love having one more idiot around to support their welfare-state. This whole thing is just now getting attention, ten years too late, but better late than never, I guess.
Mark my words: We will most likely suffer another attack on U.S. soil, and then when all the dust clears, and the market is put back on track, we'll sit here in introspect and wonder what we did wrong AGAIN... France, Germany, and Spain will chuckle smugly to themselves, but you will find turds in their pants, just the same. Maybe THEN the border will shut down.
AND ANOTHER THING: It's time Vincente Fox (crazy like a,) gets off his ass and does something for his people instead of taking bribes in the form of U.S. currency sent back by his "brothers and sisters". Bill Clinton created NAFTA to promote industry in Mexico and Canada, and so far, the Mexican gov't. hasn'nt lived up to it's promises to make life better there. If you think the U.S. gov't. is bad in terms of corruption, multiply it by 1000 for Mexico.
I hope this becomes "the" topic in the next presidential election. Yeah, sinnister, mass migration is good for countries... Just look what it has done here... YAY, less pay from shoddy competition? Higher health care bills to offset the FREE medical treatment given to illegals? Millions of tax dollars NOT being collected from illegals to support infrastructure? Sign me up! (NOT!)
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
At the battle of the Alamo here in San Antonio, General Santa Anna said it best, "We will win Texas back without a fight next time"...he is true. Most jobs here in the city call for a "BI-Lingual" person only and forget about getting city construction contracts unless you are Hispanic or of Mexican decent. Sasha: i know what you mean those little guys are pigs all right.I think they just have a staring problem in general.
LOL@Vasduten..u said "cock-fag" LOL Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Ah, wrinklesguy, you say true. As for the staring thing, I don't mind, they are latin men, nuff said. It's just the way it is. Fine for me, but my wife got kissed by a mexican friend of mine once at a party and was GROSSED OUT. I just laughed and said, "Hey, Rudolpho can't help it, he's a latin man, a sex machine. You have to accept that." Then I went over an told Rodo not to kiss my wife, he just laughed and said, "OK, sorry." No problem.
So now I just mention the "making out with Rudolpho" incident to make my wife squirm...
Posted by tucsontoes (Member # 7654) on :
quote:Originally posted by vasduten: Oh yes, Congress slips a driver's liscence clause into effect, which would make it illegal and therefore harder for illegals to get a liscence to drive here, and Vincente Fox, President of Mexico comes out and sqawks about U.S. immigratin policy...
dont you mean governor fox,because he is obviously under the illusion mexico is the 51'st state... why?
because not only did he voice opposition to the congress on that law,but have a look see at prop 200 here in arizona...which he is battling in court.this law wasnt selected by members of congress....IT WAS VOTED FOR BY US ARIZONANS...
if this man thinks he can overide my vote,my only voice...he has another thing coming...though i could be wrong...
and if i am,and prop 200 is overturned...youre going to see a whole state in an uproar.an act of congress is one thing...just a bunch of shady politicians....but a vote by the people of a state is unchangeable.....and its just too effing bad for mr fox
[ June 19, 2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: tucsontoes ]
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
Oh snap! Well put tuscontoes! Don't worry about that maggot V.Fox, he'll probably get taken out in a year or two. *dingdingding* regime change!
Posted by BOB MARLEY (Member # 2743) on :
I may be wrong and all but wasn't the western world founded by illegal immigration? well thats what this native american guy told me the other day.... Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
No, natty dread, you are not wrong. The ENTIRE world was founded by mass migration, LOL.
Humankind is trying to EVOLVE, and civilization is the way to do it. It's no sense building highways, power lines, cities, emergency services, etc. if 100 million people cross the border, use those services, and NOT pay taxes to support it.
We could always go back to wandering in tribes, I guess. I'm sure we'd all do better not having a pesky government around to provide clean water, electricity, gas, and information technology, (read as: the internet,).
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
Woo Hoo: I am so glad I started this thread!!! And the most beautiful part is that I was right. I just read a report that says republican senators have proposed a project to sent home all 12 million illegal aliens within 5 years. I dont think they thought this one through!! 6 million mexicans going back to a country that can not handle them,sweet.In a few years they will be desperate, can you spell R-E-V-O-L-U-C-I-O-N LOL And the other 6 mill will have little revolucion in their little countries. Fidel Castro and AlQaeda must be salivating!!! Yes Folks we killed communism and we will bring it back from the dead. It wont happen overnight but it will happen Imagine a Cuba that is 2 and a half times the size of the U S!!! Bigger and more populated than the U S and Canada combined. O K I shouldnt be too excited I wont live too see it but most of you youngsters will.
Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
A revolution in Mexico? LONG OVERDUE, I say!
Maybe if we ship them back and build a wall, they will be forced to actually give a shit and DO something in their motherland. Which they won't, because of my next point:
The impression I get from most of the mexicans I meet is that they don't give a shit about anything!!!
Lap belts in shopping carts to keep your toddler who can barely stand from falling out onto the floor of Wal-Mart and cracking their skull? (I've seen this more than once,) Who cares?!?
Car insurance? Who cares?
Seat belts? who cares?
Child seats in cars? Who cares?
Obvious physical limitations to occupancy limits in trucks? Never mind that, they cram 5 guys in the front, and 6 more on TOP of the tools in the back, with nary a seatbelt being used, and of course, they are in the fast lane on I-85, doing 85 MPH. The guys in the back? THEY ARE FUCKING SLEEPING!!!!!
Occupancy limits in HOUSES? Nah, as long as we fart, we are warm and snuggly...
We've got Mexican mafia cambios de cheques, (check-cashing places,)
I bet if we ship them back, and physically keep them out, (i.e. 50 ft. wall above AND below the ground,) They'll just say, "Ah, who cares?"
So guess what Mexico? When it comes to the "plight" of your people, I say, "WHO CARES?" Let them eat beans.
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I see Vasduten misses the whole point. Sending 12 million people back in 5 yrs wont cause troubles in Mexico only but in all Latin America. The wall will keep the people that want to avoid getting killed in the revolution out? Of course!! It`s not what happens before and during the revolution that we should think about.It`s what happens after. It`s the domino effect, when there is social unrest in all countries AT THE SAME TIME!! Cuba has been a pebble in our shoe whenever Fidel wakes up cranky.What if this pebble it`s 2 and a half times the size of the U S and produces 20% of the oil we consume? Unlike the Soviet Union 90 % of it`s territory has a good climate and can easily feed itself! You dont think mexicans are smart enough to organize a revolution,who cares? I guess they are as stupid as the terrorists that have not managed to hurt our mighty empire!! Wait a minute!! September 11 didnt happen,it`s just an urban legend!! Did we learn anything? Of course the Soviet Union colapsed but we did live thru 50 yrs of cold war and fear. Latin countries too dum to hurt us? Probably along the lines of what Goliath thought of David.
Posted by Benji (Member # 1757) on :
Read the book 'Reefer Madness' and it will set you straight on how illegal immigration is 1: not exactly the biggest of problems and 2: how much shit is done by this country that makes it worse. Check it out, one of the reads i've had.
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
Thanks
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
This is an article I found in today's newspaper. It was in the national section of the Modesto Bee (http://www.modbee.com) if you're interested in reading it for yourself. For those who take my posts at face value, I'll retype it here verbatim:
Headline: 582 Gang-Related Arrests
"WASHINGTON - Law enforcement authorities arrested 582 alleged gang members and associates, most of whom could be deported for immigration violations, in a two-week period last month, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Monday. He said U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has made 1,057 arrests since February, when the agency, part of the Department of Homeland Security, announced its anti-gang initiative. Of those, Chertoff estimated, 930 to 950 were illegal immigrants who "are subject to being removed." The most recent arrests, from July 16 to July 28, took place not only in urban areas on the coasts but in cities of the Midwest and South, reflecting the nationwide presence of gangs and recent patterns of immigration..."
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
Excellent!!!
Posted by imation_pc (Member # 1480) on :
How do you guys feel about people like me. WHo would not be here had it not been for an illegal immigrant coming from Mexico?
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I have nothing against illegal aliens,actually I think mass deportations are a mistake and as a country we only focus on the positive side of sending them all back. There is a negative side to it also and I believe Bush doesnt want them here because hispanics are mostly democrats,even though close to 38% voted for Bush,60% voted against him. Thus his obsession with them going back after a while.
Posted by Benji (Member # 1757) on :
Never get rid of illegal immigrants, this country would fall without them, especially border states like Texas, New Mexico and California when it comes to Mexican immigrants. I've said this before read the immigrant section of the book "Reefer Madness" and you'll know what I'm talking about. Rent it for god's sakes, just read it, it's one of the most accurate books when it comes to this stuff!
Posted by face_pedestal (Member # 3194) on :
quote:Originally posted by Benji: Never get rid of illegal immigrants, this country would fall without them, especially border states like Texas, New Mexico and California when it comes to Mexican immigrants.
Actually, this country existed just fine before we had all these illegal immigrants. Who held all the crap jobs? Americans. Why? Because they had no choice. The only reason they have a choice now, is because they can take advantage of the wellfare system. If you take away that choice by reforming wellfare (not eliminating it), and forcing all ABLE-BODIED people to work, they would work those jobs (just like they used to). The nation would save billions in wellfare spending, and there would be no "need" for illegal immigrants.
Keep in mind I'm not opposed to legal immigration, but there needs to be limits on how many can come here, along with medical checks, and background checks for obvious reasons. That being said, there is no politition in office (democrat or repulican) that has the balls to do what needs to be done.
Posted by mystik (Member # 1420) on :
Mexico is in a hole. My family has a house over there, and a house over here, so we visit often. Vasduten, the regime change you asked for, was Fox. That was it. He was elected, everyone thought he was the savior, bringing Mexico to greater status, and running the corrupted politicians out of the country. None have happened. Try not to generalize "most mexicans" as people who dont give a shit about anything, because we do. If we didnt "give a shit" we wouldnt be here, looking to make a better life out of the one we were given. I try not to generalize, and that little spat we had was stupid, but mass deportations are a little extreme measure. Accepting people based on background and ethic seem plausible, but would need major funding to go through. For all the jobs that illegals are taking here in the US, there are just as many that the companies here are directing to other countries in Asia because the people there do them for cheaper, and its no different. Call Dell customer support and speak to my tech guy "Roger". My hands are up in the air about what Mexico must do to get itself out of this hole, much like the other countries in Latin America. There are a LOT of hispanics making a name for themselves, much like blacks. I do get upset when I see some "vatos" swearing obscenities and making me and my culture look bad. I cant control that. There are a lot of hispanics that dont care about their social status here, but its a hella lot better than it is in Mexico. It's easy to generalize. I think immigration is one of the things this country will worry about after this "War" is over. Now if you'll excuse me, Hurricane Rita is "battering oil rigs" across the Gulf, and gas prices are to soar again, so I must fill up. Peace.
Posted by killa (Member # 8564) on :
quote:Originally posted by sanlucas: If you had the power to deport the 14 million illegal aliens, would you?
long story short--yes. would i feel bad--yes.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
Oh hush Mystik...you are what they call a "coconut"... a white guy in a Hispanic's body j/k...i do hear ya about the "Vato" thing, they make alot of upstanding citizen's look stupid,but what are you going to do ? Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
quote:Originally posted by face_pedestal: If you take away that choice by reforming wellfare (not eliminating it), and forcing all ABLE-BODIED people to work, they would work those jobs (just like they used to).
I agree on that one! I heard Ohio has a law like that in effect. People can draw welfare, but if they're collecting it when it comes time to harvest crops, all able-bodied recipients are required to get their asses out in the field and work. If they don't have a car, the state sends a van to their place and picks them up.
It's just a shame California doesn't seem to have anything similar in place. A couple years ago the local paper did an article on a welfare family. Husband and wife, both unemployed and had been collecting welfare for the better part of 6 years. The wife had 5 kids in 5 years. The husband (a white guy, btw) claimed he couldn't work because he didn't have any transportation, plus he had a shoulder injury. Apparently this shoulder injury hasn't stopped him from knocking up his wife as soon as she'd squirt out a kid. Anyway... maybe this is a rant for another thread.
Posted by Throwback (Member # 10027) on :
Dang, send them back...
They just busted over 300 gang members here in the SE, 90% of them illegal imigrants. All of them hispanic.
Bye bye, vatos locos...
Posted by SARGATANAS (Member # 11222) on :
The real fact for ALL!!!!!! these f....ing lines that all of you have wrote is that : The general business law : lower price on production higher profit for the business expept that , when we have people starving and no future for them then we surtenly have people who looking for a better life every where is possible
DON'T ACCUSE THE PEOPLE ACCUSE THE SYSTEM
Posted by rockbass (Member # 6012) on :
My opinion is yes on the deportation...
quote:Originally posted by Tweener:
quote:Originally posted by face_pedestal: If you take away that choice by reforming wellfare (not eliminating it), and forcing all ABLE-BODIED people to work, they would work those jobs (just like they used to).
It's just a shame California doesn't seem to have anything similar in place. A couple years ago the local paper did an article on a welfare family. Husband and wife, both unemployed and had been collecting welfare for the better part of 6 years. The wife had 5 kids in 5 years. The husband (a white guy, btw) claimed he couldn't work because he didn't have any transportation, plus he had a shoulder injury. Apparently this shoulder injury hasn't stopped him from knocking up his wife as soon as she'd squirt out a kid. Anyway... maybe this is a rant for another thread.
And on a side note...why does it seem like people on welfare always have tons of kids?
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I think it`s been settled !!! Bush will get his guest worker program and the mass deportations will start in 6 years!!! Sweeeeet!! Hasta la vista baby!!!
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I think I read that you could get $500 for every illegal you turn in. I think the goverment should bring that back and allow regular citizen`s to get involved!!!
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
The southern WALL?
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I wonder if the illegal aliens that are caught in the U S can be forced to work in the Southern Wall until they are deported.
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
How long do you think it will take to deport 12 million people? 1 month, 2, 1 year?
Posted by sanlucas (Member # 3492) on :
I wander if illegal aliens have a foot fetish?
Posted by Axlsinema (Member # 4219) on :
quote:Originally posted by sanlucas: How long do you think it will take to deport 12 million people? 1 month, 2, 1 year?
They are just gonna get buses and if they dont got the right papers they get on the bus and get sent over the border...
Posted by Axlsinema (Member # 4219) on :
quote:Originally posted by sanlucas: I wander if illegal aliens have a foot fetish?
possibly, but all the illegal aliens the farm worker ones i see them with their wives, their wives have nasty feet...
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
quote:Originally posted by Benji: Never get rid of illegal immigrants, this country would fall without them, especially border states like Texas, New Mexico and California when it comes to Mexican immigrants. I've said this before read the immigrant section of the book "Reefer Madness" and you'll know what I'm talking about. Rent it for god's sakes, just read it, it's one of the most accurate books when it comes to this stuff!
Fair enough. I'll read this book while you read each link found within this website:
i am all for closing our borders and sending at least half of the 14 millions or so illegal imagrants in this country home.i am not trying to be mean, and i did not read all 7 pages of the post before me, but i read some on the first page. first of all if your here illegally you are not paying taxes and our not putting into social security which by the way the goverment said with be completly gone with no funds by 2040. just the age i will be when i need it and am allowed to get it.i heard someone say that the economy with be hurt if all imagrants were deported back to there countries. i think thats wrong.the economy would be better. let me tell you a story. my friend owns a pizzaria. he has about 5 mexicans who are illegal working in the back room. one day i came in and one of those guys was showing pictures of this beutiful house, big with a built in pool. he told me it was his house back in mexico. how did you do it i said? he has been working here in that pizzaria for 10 years. he goes back home for about a month or 2 every year. he lives here with ten guys in a small apartment. rent is cheap with ten guys about 75 dollars a month. he take what he needs to pay the rent and eat and the rest goes back to his wife and kids in mexico. the american dollars goes far down there. i think he said in 5 or so years he would retire because he has a great house and plenty of american made money to spend in mexico for the rest of his life.i am sure he's not the only one. thats helping our economy? no, its helping the mexican economy. money made here should stay here to help this country. i got another one for you. i got friendly with the guys in a newstand/deli in brooklyn where i once lived. the were owned by arabs. one guy told me the owner owns about ten of these all over nyc. all the guys work here for a year, then they go home for a year to there familys.each store has an apartment upstairs which the owner also owns. about4 to 5 guys live up there together. the owner gives them a place to live and food for free. all ther money goes back home to there countries in the middle east. this really bugs me to know american money is going back to the middle east where all those countries are so anti-american. but they like our money though. this is not helping our economy neither. i know a lot of you guys have family there living poorly and you came here for a better life, i understand that. but with illegal imagrents not paying taxes, not paying into social security, and sending money to be spent in other countries hurt all americans, whether you were born here or just got your green card last week. so you can understand why a lot of american want to send them all back home and let them do it legally. especially when right now america is one of the most hated countries in the world.....well thats untill those countries want our money or need us to save there people from a tyrant leader thats killling his own people. thats when these countries love us. and then hate us again when we finish our job. and a lot of americans who parents were born here can't relate or feel bad for illegals. my grandparent stopped at ellis island on there way to n.y and did it the right way. since i am a carpenter i feel this more than others.i have seen guys get fired who made 125 a day an replace with mexican imagrants who would work for 75 a day.even off the books how can a guy pay a morgage, car insurance, and feed his family thats living here with him for 75 a day. that 350 a week minus taxes. you can't do it. listen if you want to do it the right way, then god bless you and good luck. but crossing the border from mexico, taking a boat from cuba, or getting a visa for a few months and then not going home and disapering into the crowd in wrong and illegal and i am against that.
Posted by Hal (Member # 3484) on :
I think anybody who wasn't born here should have to go back to whereever they came from. We don't have enough affordable housing and other benefits for our own people because it is being given to all these foreigners here.
Posted by montegalan (Member # 14465) on :
I think we should allow some of them to stay. Loosers need scape goats! I was born in the most incredible country on earth,where poor people can become wildly succesful if they are willing to work hard but I rather wait till Uncle Sam delivers a sack of gold coins to my doorstep and if he doesn`t it`s the fault of illegals!!! Poor me I am a natural born looser Boo Hoo !!!
Posted by montegalan (Member # 14465) on :
quote:Originally posted by doitny: i am all for closing our borders and sending at least half of the 14 millions or so illegal imagrants in this country home.i am not trying to be mean, and i did not read all 7 pages of the post before me, but i read some on the first page. first of all if your here illegally you are not paying taxes and our not putting into social security which by the way the goverment said with be completly gone with no funds by 2040. just the age i will be when i need it and am allowed to get it.i heard someone say that the economy with be hurt if all imagrants were deported back to there countries. i think thats wrong.the economy would be better. let me tell you a story. my friend owns a pizzaria. he has about 5 mexicans who are illegal working in the back room. one day i came in and one of those guys was showing pictures of this beutiful house, big with a built in pool. he told me it was his house back in mexico. how did you do it i said? he has been working here in that pizzaria for 10 years. he goes back home for about a month or 2 every year. he lives here with ten guys in a small apartment. rent is cheap with ten guys about 75 dollars a month. he take what he needs to pay the rent and eat and the rest goes back to his wife and kids in mexico. the american dollars goes far down there. i think he said in 5 or so years he would retire because he has a great house and plenty of american made money to spend in mexico for the rest of his life.i am sure he's not the only one. thats helping our economy? no, its helping the mexican economy. money made here should stay here to help this country. i got another one for you. i got friendly with the guys in a newstand/deli in brooklyn where i once lived. the were owned by arabs. one guy told me the owner owns about ten of these all over nyc. all the guys work here for a year, then they go home for a year to there familys.each store has an apartment upstairs which the owner also owns. about4 to 5 guys live up there together. the owner gives them a place to live and food for free. all ther money goes back home to there countries in the middle east. this really bugs me to know american money is going back to the middle east where all those countries are so anti-american. but they like our money though. this is not helping our economy neither. i know a lot of you guys have family there living poorly and you came here for a better life, i understand that. but with illegal imagrents not paying taxes, not paying into social security, and sending money to be spent in other countries hurt all americans, whether you were born here or just got your green card last week. so you can understand why a lot of american want to send them all back home and let them do it legally. especially when right now america is one of the most hated countries in the world.....well thats untill those countries want our money or need us to save there people from a tyrant leader thats killling his own people. thats when these countries love us. and then hate us again when we finish our job. and a lot of americans who parents were born here can't relate or feel bad for illegals. my grandparent stopped at ellis island on there way to n.y and did it the right way. since i am a carpenter i feel this more than others.i have seen guys get fired who made 125 a day an replace with mexican imagrants who would work for 75 a day.even off the books how can a guy pay a morgage, car insurance, and feed his family thats living here with him for 75 a day. that 350 a week minus taxes. you can't do it. listen if you want to do it the right way, then god bless you and good luck. but crossing the border from mexico, taking a boat from cuba, or getting a visa for a few months and then not going home and disapering into the crowd in wrong and illegal and i am against that.
Your ancestors came into Ellis Island without a visa and were given one on the spot. Only people that had something really wrong with them (diseases) were turned back. Even the ones that didn`t even have papers made it. All they had to do was hold a piece of paper that read WOP ( with out papers) and they were given papers on the spot. That`s why some people refer despectively to italian americans as wop`s. As far as the mexican goes, Mexico is our second trading partner and a decent chunk of his money will come back here.As far as the middle east I agree with you. Why this apes don`t come into the country legally? I am still amazed at how much ignorance there is regarding this. There is only 60,000 visas for unskilled workers and 55,000 are given thru a lottery? which genius came up with that? The Texas roofers association alone has a deficit of 50,000 workers. We have a deficit of 65,000 nurses right now and by 2010 56 million baby boomers are going to retire and we have only 29 million to replace them with. Illegal aliens don`t pay taxes? Actually they do, some of them get an ITIN number from the IRS and some of them make up social security numbers, they can`t get their refunds. The IRS has created a fund with all this unclaimed money(450 billion so far). The economy wouldn`t suffer if they are sent back? Actually it will. Let me give you an example, I used to work for a cleaning company in the northeast. There were 400 employees 99.99% illegals.Bear in mind that this are part timers.If they are sent home we wouldn`t have any problems? Yes we would. The owner of the company is american as well as his daughter and son and they all worked in the company as well as me and 4 more supervisors,2 secretaries and the guy that repaired the vacuums, buffers etc.Once they are gone we ( the americans) don`t have an income anymore,no mortgage payments,no car payments no Viagra in my case lol. To get some people to do some of the work we would have to pay a lot more and pass the extra cost to the consumer,if it`s only one company it`s OK but this would happen across the country in cleaning companies,agriculture, construction etc.When that happens inflation increases rapidly because all of us have to pay more for the same service. You get more money, you pay more money. The social security will be depleted by 2040? Yes it will, it wont happen if this people it`s legalized and and we have a steady source of income.Our unemployment it`s already low(4.8)without them we will be in trouble. Are they going to be legalized? NO We are going to pay for our mistakes, I am 2 yrs from retirement and my 401K it`s in great shape, I paid off my house 15 yrs ago so me and my wife are in good shape and I`ll be gone by the time you kids are in real trouble,I just hope the anti-immigrant lobby pays for your retirement when the time comes but I doubt it.
[ May 30, 2006, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: montegalan ]
Posted by ledaemon (Member # 198) on :
Posted by montegalan (Member # 14465) on :
I found my Dad!! I love you Daddy LOL
Posted by rafael (Member # 6152) on :
Hal wrote: _________________________________________ This is awesome:
Illegal Immigration Cartoon
-Hal- __________________________________________
Excellent Hal. Unfortunately reading some post on this topic I understand why nowadays the world is so bloody awkward.
STOP RACISM . And I am white, but I could be black, yellow, red, or any other rainbow colour.
Rafael
Posted by rafael (Member # 6152) on :
I am spanish, but I could be arab, or chinese, or south american, or african, or australian, or north american (why not?), etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...............................................................
Rafael
Posted by Tweener (Member # 1630) on :
quote:Originally posted by montegalan: Illegal aliens don`t pay taxes? Actually they do, some of them get an ITIN number from the IRS and some of them make up social security numbers, they can`t get their refunds. The IRS has created a fund with all this unclaimed money(450 billion so far).
I'm glad you brought that up, because I work for the IRS. On a weekly basis I pull at least one SS# where a taxpayer has over a hundred illegal immigrants filing income taxes piggyback on their number. So let's say on average these illegals make $10-15,000 a year. When you have 100 people making those wages and filing under the same number, it adds up pretty fast. Then all of a sudden it's "Hey, this person has $150,000 worth of income they didn't claim on their taxes." Would you like to be that person?
And all due respect, if your boss knowingly employed a 99% illegal immigrant workforce so he could undercut his competitors, I could give a shit if he was unable to make his mortgage payments if his business fell through.
Posted by montegalan (Member # 14465) on :
What do you do once you pull up a SS# with that many wages? Just curious If my former boss didn`t do it he/she would`ve been out of business ages ago. All cleaning companies do it. If we had created a legal path for them to come to work we wouldn`t have a problem this big! We don`t create legal mechanisms to handle them yet we create the jobs! they`ll come. They come, they can`t go back to spend time with their families,they stay and bring their families . If they could go back and forth they would keep their families there, it`s cheapper to raise a family south of the border. If they come here legally it`s easier to make sure employers adhere to the law and wages don`t go down. Anyway I strongly believe that next year after the border it`s a little more secure the mass deportations will start. I don`t know how long it will take to get them all out but it will happen!! One thing I like about it`s the fact that even though we write a piece of history everyday, not all of us get to see something this big everyday. It`s going to be a pretty big movement of people. I believe it`s going to be entertaining up to a point. So throw another shrimp on the barbie and get a good seat.
Posted by ozkar (Member # 13264) on :
No, but complicated.
Our infrastructure is currently built around the assumption that we will be able to have a certain amount of labor accomplished at a certain cost. We can't deport 14 million illegal workers right now. We can't pay minimum wage for those jobs right now either, as we would have to do if we granted them all legal status.
We should leave everything alone for now because anything we do will either screw the US or the US and immagrants collectively.
Subtle pressures successively increased on the employers, combined with making legal immagration for work successively easier, while increasing border security (as a last concern) would make everything legal over a long enough period of time that the market can change to accomodate fair wages for legal immagrant workers.
Building a fence or hiring an army of men to protect the border is just silly. What is this saying about our wisdom and intelligence? Our asses are to fragile to ride a tractor up and down a field all day but they can handle riding a jeep up and down the Rio all day? I don't think so.
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I think I'm done with this topic in general for a while...discussing this, affirmative action and music is so difficult. Most of the time it's just not worth it.
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