When it comes to relationships, I have no interest in changing anyone else because my only interest would be in changing me. There are certain things that, if they pop up, or if you find out about them, or if after you get over the initial excitement of meeting someone who floats your boat, that these are things that you find distasteful or makes you feel angry or insecure, there are certain things that you have to draw the line in the sand and say that this is not what I’m going to tolerate and that I’m out.
This is something I’ve told several people, and now I’m going to say it here for the first time. It’s going to sound cynical, and it’s going to strip romance of all the nuance and all of the mystery. This applies to both sexes, but since there are 5,000 times more men in this forum than women, I'll be talking mostly to them.
Here it is. The person who cares the least has the upper hand in the relationship. The trick is to find a woman who cares about you more than you care about her. That’s because you’ll have her right where you want her. Think about it. You need her to need you more than you need her. So you need to pick a woman who is ... I don’t want to say needy ... but someone who needs you more than you need her. She cares about you more than you care about her. You need a woman who, when she leaves the house, you don’t care where she’s going. You don’t care if she’s going out with her friends, if she’s out in the night with the girls or if she’s meeting up with an ex-boyfriend. You just don’t care. This relieves all the stress in the relationship, it reduces your insecurity and increases your self esteem. And I say stop trying to tell the other person what to do or not do. Start telling her that she can do what she wants to do, but that in doing so, you’re out of there.
Stop telling women that they can’t go out in the night with the girls, like Girls Night Out, going to dance clubs. My attitude about it is that if a woman goes out to dance clubs at night, it means that she hasn’t gotten THAT out of her system. And when I say THAT, it’s not dancing I’m talking about. I’m talking about tarting herself up, going out and getting her ass grabbed by a bunch of strange men.
Let’s face it. That’s what dancing and going out to night clubs is all about. If all women needed to do was dance, they can crank up the boom box, the girls can get together in her living room and they can dance the night away, they can dance and dance and dance.
Going out to night clubs has nothing to do with dancing.
I had a woman tell me that she just wanted to go out and dance. I told her that she could bring the girls here and they can play the music as loudly as they can. The six of them can come over to the apartment and dance. But that clearly wasn’t enough, because if she wasn’t tarted up and out in a nightclub somewhere where she can bribe the bouncer somehow, or slide her way in and ...
... Then that lie that women all dance together, that they don’t dance with guys? That’s a lie, too. They may dance together for a few minutes before the guys cut in and get what they’re trying to get, like trying to cop a feel, if not more.
Guess what? I refuse to tolerate that. Any woman who wants to go out to clubs, that’s fine. But you’re not my girlfriend. I’ll be happy to have sex with you because I don’t care what you’re doing while I’m out having sex with another woman. But my attitude about it, ladies, is that if you insist on tarting yourself up and going out at night, I’m not going to live with you, I’m not going to marry you, I’m not going to give you the password to any of my accounts, ATM card or anything.
You are a booty call. You’re a whore. I don’t mind being with whores and sluts. All of that is fine with me, just as long as we understand what you are. You’re a whore, you’re a slut, and that’s why you need to keep going out to clubs at night. By the way, being unmarried myself, I LOVE meeting sluts! When I meet a girl, I’m hoping she’s a filthy slut ... are you kidding me?! I mean, if that’s what you call a woman who goes around and has sex with strangers, goes out and has sex with lots of guys, then as an unmarried person who plans on staying that way, I LOVE meeting women like that! Women like that are exactly the ones I’m looking for!
But if I’m married to you, or living with you, or if you’re my girlfriend, and you insist on going out to clubs at night, I’m drawing the line right there. You’re out! You are out. You are a sex object to me, and that’s all you will ever be.
The same thing goes with Facebook or anything like that. Sorry girls, I’m out. You’re not using my computer to log into that stuff. You’re not going to be sitting there with 96 friends with 92 of them being guys who are commenting on hot they think you look. I’m not going to live with that. I’ll have sex with you, I’ll talk to you, but you will not live with me, I will not marry you, I will not call you my girlfriend. You’re just a woman who I date occasionally. That’s it. You’re one of MY 96 friends, you know what I’m talking about? If you have a page on facebook, you’re one of my 96 friends. Got it?
For me, this is something where there’s no negotiating, there’s no compromise. Either you’re in or you’re out.
The purpose of having facebook pages is to hook up! That’s the purpose of it. People love to say, "Oh no, I like bands. I love hearing about new baaaands, and my friends need to find me…" What, your friends need to find you? Your friends couldn’t find you before? How about you use a phone or an email? How about knocking on your door? If they are really your friends, then why do you need facebook?
Can I tell you something? I’ve got friends who I have known for at least ten years. I never had MySpace, I do not have a facebook account, and AMAZINGLY ... EVERYONE manages to stay in touch with me. Everyone can still find me. By the way, let me add classmates.com in that list. Ladies, if you’ve got a classmates.com page, then you’re chances of being my girlfriend are zero. Again, the people you went to school with, if they were really your friends, you would’ve stayed in touch with them. You don’t need to get on classmates.com. I mean, let’s tell the truth. The only purpose of becoming a member of that site is to finish up any unfinished business that existed in high school. That’s the only reason why people pay for that.
Everyone I know that I went to high school with who I still want to talk to (which is about three people), they know my phone number. They know my email address, they know my physical address. They can contact me if they want to. One friend who served time in the military, who had to move from city to city, knows how to reach me. Another friend who I see every once in a while, whether it be him flying over from Miami to see me or the other way around, finds it incredibly easy to get in touch with me. We didn't need classmates.com or MySpace or facebook to find each other.
If your girl is on classmates.com, it’s because she wants to hook up men who she thought was hot many years back.
For me, these are absolute deal killers. If the girl has facebook, she is not going to be my girlfriend. I will talk to her and I’ll make her perform sex acts that’ll have her family members disown her. But I wouldn’t marry her or help her move into my place.
Another issue. If all her friends are guys, I’ll have sex with her, but I will not get involved with any girl who has only guy friends. If all her friends are gay, same thing. I don’t mind her having a gay friend or two, okay? I have a gay friend or two. But if all her friends are gay, then there’s a reason. And that reason is going to get in the way of us having a relationship.
There are certain things about women in where if these conditions exist, ... by the way, I’m very down on relationships and having couple live together, so none of this effects me. But if I were prone to being in relationships, they are absolute deal killers.
Do you agree or disagree?
Other than women having ugly feet, do you have your own deal killers?
-- National
[ January 29, 2012, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: National ]
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1. Is not open to my foot fetish. 2. Does not approve of my hobbies. 3. Overall, is not a nice person (though I would have known that before I got in a relationship with her).
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National, i think you need some serious therapy. you have an amazingly negative outlook on all other people in the world. you assume the absolute worst of everyone. you also assume that everything leads back to sex. i know lots of women who enjoy going to gay clubs because they dont want to have their asses grabbed and can just dance. i also know plenty of women who go out with their friends and dance with just their friends and dont dance with guys. i have had facebook for years and not once have i ever hooked up with anyone nor have i wanted to. i have gotten back in touch with friends from HS and college that i never would have spoken to again. it hasnt changed my life, but it has been fun. you need change your fundamental view of relationships and i dont just mean intimate relationships. being a friend isnt black or white. i have friends with whom i was have lunch with and talk about movies or MMA or work but i'd never tell them about anything too personal. i also have friend with whom i can talk to about personal issues but we have no common interests like movies or music.
quote:Originally posted by National: ...I’m talking about tarting herself up...
Just a random: I always thought of that phrase as an English one...never heard an American use it...anyway.
Well I won't explain my feelings on what you wrote because as we've discussed before, we come from 2 different worlds.
I'd probably say though, when I was single, hooking up was my number 2 reason for using Facebook - random adds, talking to girls I didn't know, trying to arrange meet-ups etc etc.
Nah, the main reason I got it was just it was trendy. It was the cool thing to have in high school and still is really (though now my primary reason for having it genuinely *is* to keep in contact with friends and family seeing as I'm literally on the polar opposite side of the world from them all, but again, I understand my situation is unique).
I read Neil Strauss' "The Game" and perused PUA forums back in single/younger days and I never fully committed to trying to get an F-close or whatever - I was kind of waiting for university - but I played around with it and it was kind of cool.
Then I "met"* a girl who changed my life and honestly mate, you will be dumbstruck as to how much it will change you when you do meet your perfect woman.
I mean I know you're happy and I was too, but it all happened by accident and it's just been nothing but amazing from day one.
*You know the story and I've mentioned it often enough on here!
You'd be one hell of an interesting guy to share a drink with I reckon, National.
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There's no therapy needed when you know what you're talking about. Now you could've been joking when you said that, and that's fine.
The next time I start a topic on relationships, I'm going to stress at least twice that I know that there are exceptions to the rule. I always tell people that even a broken clock is right twice a day. I have to say that there are exceptions because people will assume that I'm talking about every single person on Earth. But I'm not here to talk about the needles in the haystack ... at least not in this topic. I'm making generalizations because I feel that what I'm saying is generally true. Generally. The exceptions are always the first ones jumping in telling you just how wrong you are, as if what you said had no legitimate basis whatsoever. I mean how many people would actually admit to being guilty of some of these things for fear that they'll look like the bad guys? You mean to tell me that what I said was way off base and totally flagrant? Taking the exceptions to the rule into account, I don't see how anything I said made little sense.
For Andy, now when I think about it, I don't recall a time hearing another American using that phrase. I don't know. I just like the way it sounds. It's so ... slutty, just how I like it.
----
I have to re-word what I said originally to see if I can make myself clearer.
I keep having conversations with people (in the outside world, not people in this forum) who tolerate what their spouses and girlfriends are doing. They tolerate the girls' night out, the girls' weekend, the girls vacationing together. I don't get it. Why would a guy put up with that? I mean, do tell me. I don’t get it. I don't understand this.
Think about this for a second.
Now don't get me wrong. I get comments from people saying that my attitude about this means that I'm a controlling person.
Nope.
I have no interest in controlling what she does. I only want to control what I do. And what I do is that I don't put up with a girlfriend who wants to go out and be with the girls. If she wants to be out with the girls, I would be perfectly happy to date her, I would be happy to have sex with her. But I have no interest in having a monogamous relationship.
I know that these nights out with the girls to dance clubs and night clubs and vacations with the girls ... I know what those lead to. Trust me, I know what goes on. But I do not want to live with that, and I wouldn't.
But if I were in a relationship – and God forbid that would find myself in one of those, much less married to someone – but if I were, I wouldn’t tell her what to do like some controlling freak. I would simply tell her that if she were to leave the country to a place like Cancun, or Cabo, or Puerto Varllarta, or if she’s going with the girls to ... Honolulu or Waikiki or the Key West, I ... am not ... going to be there when she gets home! I'm just not. I don’t have to live with that.
Don't think this is coming from a person who is insecure. If I'm just having sex with her, I would be perfectly happy with her doing whatever she likes when I'm not around. All of that is fine. But you see what a lot of women want is for us to commit to a monogamous relationship while they leave their options open to do whatever they want to do with the girls. What goes on the road, stays in the road.
Just reading the headlines on the front covers of magazines like COSMO tells you all you need to know. They have topics giving women tips on things like vacation sex. Vacation sex? No! I don’t want to put her in a position where that might happen. I don’t want to. And I don’t want to be there in case something does happen.
Understand ... as an unmarried man living alone, do I enjoy having sex? Sure I do. Do I have a committed relationship? No, I don’t.
If I have sex with a woman, do I then ask her -- if I haven’t talked to her for three days -- do I then ask her where she's been, what she's been doing or who she's been with? No. She's completely a free agent. She's completely free to do whatever she wants. Are you kidding me? She is free to do whatever she likes. She is absolutely free. If she wants to have sex with her high school sweetheart, then she gets a pass. She gets an unlimited pass.
You would not see me putting a GPS system under her car, following her around or asking her questions. If all I'm doing is having sex with her, she is absolutely free to do what she wants with whoever she wants, go on vacations wherever she likes, stay as long as she wants on those vacations. She is free to have girls' night out, she can have sex with whoever she wants, like the masseuse or the pool boy or the scuba diving teacher. All of that is fine because while she's gone, I'm having sex with other women. I'm giving her the space to enjoy her life. You understand where I'm coming from?
However, the problem arises when she starts hammering me on monogamy.
Here's how monogamy works, which, by the way, guarantees that I will never be in a serious relationship. If we are in a serious relationship, that means ...
-- That she's done going to nightclubs ... unless we're together. -- That means that she's done going to vacation spots like Maui, or the Bahamas ... unless we're together. -- She does not go bars on the sunset strip ... unless we're together.
We just don't.
If she needs time alone, she gets time alone. Where does she get time alone? Starrbucks, or the public library, going to the top of the mountains to think, or a long walk on the beach. All reasonable. If she wants to go to the log cabin with the girls for the weekend, that's acceptable. I think that's good for the relationship.
But the minute she tells me that she needs to be at a nightclub somewhere with the girls, clubs like Pacha or Ceilo here in NYC, the minute I find out that that where she wants to go with the girls, and insists on going without me, or if she goes to those places behind my back, we do not have a monogamous relationship because she insists on tarting herself up (there goes that word again) and going to places where people go to hook up. If she wants to do that stuff while she's in a *committed* relationship, then she should go right ahead and do it. But guess what? I'm not going to sit around, twiddling my thumbs, waiting for her to call me. I'm not going to wait to receive a text message from her. I'm not going to wait for the next day to get a phone call from her. It's just not going to happen.
I had one woman who rarely had time to see me, but she had plenty of time to be in wet t-shirt contests, she had time to be in bikini contests. That's right. Even doing all of that, she always wanted to know where I was, what I was doing, or who I was doing.
I didn't want to put up with that. I told her that she needed to do whatever she wants while I did what I wanted to do because a monogamous relationship was not going to work for us under those circumstances.
As far as being laid back and being cool about having a casual situation, no one is more laid back and more cool about it than I am.
I respect the want and need for a variety. I understand that every once in a while someone is going to come back in to her life. Guys like her ex-husband, her ex-boyfriend, the high school sweetheart, the guy who she had a one night stand with, whoever. They will all cycle back in to her life at one point or another. I cycle back in other people’s lives from time to time. I make the calls that sound like, "Hey, how's married life? ... Oh, you got a divorce ... OH! ..." I do that. I absolutely do.
So I understand that she's going to get those calls and sometimes she's going to respond. Sometimes she's going to say that she's just going out to get a cup of coffee with him, sometimes she's going to go out with the girls to meet totally new guys.
I would be an IDIOT to want to live in a situation like that.
So the only way I would live in a situation like that is if I have the freedom to go where I want and do what I want. No nagging, no calling to see where I am, and I would give her the same respect. I would leave her alone. If she wants her space, she’s got it.
And if she has a facebook account, guess what? We're just f-ck buddies. That's all we are. I ... do not ... believe that she has a facebook page to show her high school graduation pictures, or to show baby pictures, or to find her friends. You find your friends using this low tech device called an iphone or the Drioid or the Blackberry. If she wants to find her friends, she should pick that up and give a dial. You do not need a web page to tell the whole world that you're 5'6'' and a Scorpio. If you need to tell the world that you're 5'6'' and a Scorpio, fine. I will be hooking up my own way, and it won’t be through facebook. That site is just like match.com, only more incedious.
I might say more things about this hooking up through facebook thing, but for now I'll leave it right there.
You think I've lost it or something?
[ February 08, 2012, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: National ]
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In case anyone new is just lurking through this topic, here's what's been going on.
By the way, let me stress that this applies to both sexes.
We know why women go out to clubs, and it's not because they love dancing. This is just the biggest lie. And what's amazing is that I'm not your husband or your boyfriend, ladies. If there is any woman reading this, you don't have to lie to ME about this because I know why you go out. You go out to get some hot guy groping your ass. And this is completely legitimate in your eyes because you were just dancing. You just went out to go dancing. You had no ill intent.
Oliver North would have a FIELD day with this. You know, Oliver North should start a conversation on this topic because he invented that term plausible deniability. They're all about plausible deniability. (While she's crying) "I'm not doing anything outlandish. I just like dancing. Me and my girlfriends, we just like to go out and dance. Sure, guys grab me but that's the way guys are. I was just out there dancing."
You’ve got to be kidding me.
If you are in a committed relationship and your girl goes out to clubs without you, end the relationship ... TODAY. To-day. Okay? Today.
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National, i was mostly joking about the therapy, but in all honesty, and not meant as some kind of insult, you must have truly burned.. hard! as with most things in life, women and their loyalty and commitment is a spectrum. you're going to find women who will cheat on their man any time he turns his back and you're going to find women who wouldnt have sex with another man if he said it was ok and was being offer $10million. the vast majority lie somewhere in the middle. the fact that you look at relationships as if they were poison just reinforced my belief that you have been burned. i actually find it kind of sad that you have such a bad view of women in general and that perhaps you might someday meet a good woman but not know it or not be able to trust her enough.. because believe it or not.. some women can be trusted.. as can some men
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Although I completely understand what you're talking about, and although I can understand how you arrived to the conclusion that you did, I also think you totally misunderstood me at the same time on some parts.
The part about relationships being poison, I'll give you that one. I also think marriage is a raw deal for men. But that's a topic for another day. My stance on this is that if a young man insists on having a girlfriend, then he should wait until he's at least 25 years of age. By that time he'll have a better idea as to what he wants to do with his future, and it's a time when he should have his life more put together and organized while he's still on the rise to completing his education or when he's starting a new chapter in life after getting his degree in whatever field he was mastering. He couldn't say that about himself when he was 20. I'll even take it a step further and say that he shouldn't have a serious relationship until he has achieved his career potential, when he's working at a place that makes him a good deal of money. He should be 30 by the time that happens. Until then, he should have a rotation of women instead of nesting all of his eggs in one basket at too young of an age.
But as far as everything else you said, I think you have me misunderstood.
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I agree with a lot of your points National but right off the bat I can say I have no problem with the wife heading out to the club with her girlfriends. Sometimes I go with her sometimes I don't. I see it as a time to just chill by myself and play some xbox or head out with the guys to say another bar....just a chance to get out and let loose. If I see a hot woman I don't have to worry about hearing in my ear "Did you have a good look" and I'm sure she enjoys being able to check out guys for that matter. All that matters is who we end up climbing into bed with at the end of the night...
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you have an amazingly negative outlook on all other people in the world. you assume the absolute worst of everyone. you also assume that everything leads back to sex. i know lots of women who enjoy going to gay clubs because they dont want to have their asses grabbed and can just dance. i also know plenty of women who go out with their friends and dance with just their friends and dont dance with guys. i have had facebook for years and not once have i ever hooked up with anyone nor have i wanted to. i have gotten back in touch with friends from HS and college that i never would have spoken to again. it hasnt changed my life, but it has been fun. you need change your fundamental view of relationships and i dont just mean intimate relationships. being a friend isnt black or white. i have friends with whom i was have lunch with and talk about movies or MMA or work but i'd never tell them about anything too personal. i also have friend with whom i can talk to about personal issues but we have no common interests like movies or music.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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