Does anyone have any thoughts on Hulk Hogan going to TNA? Serious competition for WWE? I think another year or two and it might have possibilities.
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
I'll have to read more on Hogan's move to TNA. Right now, TNA is SO FAR behind the WWE, it's not even funny. When TNA becomes bigger, the WWE will run that corporation out of business. The NWA tried to compete. How are those guys doing? TNA will soon learn what AWA, WCW and ECW have learned the hard way: If you try to compete with the WWE as the top professional wrestling organization in North America (particularly in the United States, Mexico does not count) you will file for bankruptcy. And then, they will wind up on WWEs 24/7 OnDemand where fans can order matches from all promotions. Like with the other three organizations, the WWE will have a three-DVD set that will be called "The Rise and Fall of TNA". It's incredible how people think that TNA will be the exception to History's lesson.
Like I said, I'll have to read on this Hogan thing, but I'll tell right now that Hogan is NOT going to help much. In fact, he won't help at all. At his age, he can't jump more than two feet off the floor. That guy is a wreck. He contemplated suicide, and he's going to be real flaky on them.
TNA should not be taken seriously. Did you know that over the last year or two, TNA's World Champions have been, on avereage, six years older than the WWE- and World Champions? I don't have the exact numbers with me, but I read it somewhere. If you're competing against the WWE, you have to do better than that.
TNA will go down. I'll give it six years, tops. If not six years, then it's going to go down eventually. WWE should be very concerned as soon as TNA gets to sell out those 24,000-seat arenas that WWE does every night. Until then, TNA will stick with it's crowds of 3,000.
WWE WILL find a way.
Posted by joebond (Member # 11049) on :
Your 100% right..I went to a TNA show here in Mass(tickets were free).Probably the worst show I've ever been to.I would've been mad if I had to pay for them..
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
They were FREE? I would've been livid if I had to pay for TNA tickets and then see a show as bad as you said it was.
I'm in NYC. Raw will be at the Garden this Monday. But I'm not going to that show. Next time for sure. There was this one time I went to a WWE show at the Garden, I bought $20 tickets, each for my brother and I. At that show, they put on Smackdown AND Raw on the same night. First, they did the taping of Smackdown, which started around 6:30. Then at 9:00, Raw went on the air live. I saw TWO shows for the price of one. The crowd was MUCH more pumped for RAW then they were for Smackdown.
The only thing I like about TNA is the Knockout Division. THAT's how women's wrestling should be like.
I mean, WWE has some great women's matches. One women's match that I will NEVER forget is this one for the Women's Title at the PPV Armageddon back in 1999.
Like I said, for TNA, the women's matches are my primary source of interests. Overall, they put together better matches than the Divas at WWE. In TNA, my favorites are The Beautiful People. I love their entrance music, and I LOVE how they enter the ring.
--National
Posted by blackHxC88 (Member # 15094) on :
i don't wanna consider myself one, but i'm kind of a "smark" and the vibe from the online forums i visit daily indicates that NO ONE is happy about hogan signing on with TNA except for Dixie Carter. It doesn't help matters that TNA was created partly as a way for Jeff Jarrett to convince the wrestling world he could be a main event talent (he isn't)
outside of a hand full of guys and the Knockout's division, TNA is usually not taken THAT seriously.
Considering the way RAW had gone in the past couple of months, Smackdown has become the best wrestling program on TV.
Posted by tyger (Member # 17720) on :
I like the fact that TNA has a strong tag team division. WWE's has gotten kinda weak over the last few years. Has not been the same since the early to mid nineties. I think there is a lot of good talent in the younger generation, they just need to be utilized right. A.J. Styles and Eric Young are a couple of guys that have a lot of talent.
Posted by blackHxC88 (Member # 15094) on :
quote:Originally posted by tyger: I like the fact that TNA has a strong tag team division. WWE's has gotten kinda weak over the last few years. Has not been the same since the early to mid nineties. I think there is a lot of good talent in the younger generation, they just need to be utilized right. A.J. Styles and Eric Young are a couple of guys that have a lot of talent.
A.J. Styles is one of the top 5 wrestlers in the world, and making Eric Young a upper-mid card leader of a heel "stable" was so out of nowhere
Posted by Salvy_Mic (Member # 13384) on :
As soon as the TNA started turning into wrestling's senior citizen circuit, I stopped caring. There's just nothing about that promotion that I find interesting asides from the knockouts, Styles, and Samoa Joe, but otherwise, it's whatever. And it's not like the WWE is doing great either. It really needs to step up if it wants to continue validating itself as a mainstream attraction.
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
quote:Originally posted by Salvy_Mic: And it's not like the WWE is doing great either. It really needs to step up if it wants to continue validating itself as a mainstream attraction.
**I'm not looking for an argument here**
I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying there? Aren't they already mainstream attraction? How does it need to step up to validate itself as mainstream?
The only thing I can come up to explain why they haven't been doing better is because their ratings have not been as good as it was from 1997 through 2002. Right now, Raw averages 4-point something in the ratings, compared to 6-point something between '97 and '01. That was because throughout most of that period, WCW was at the peak of their game and people started to pay attention to WWE's Attitude Era where everything seemed to be sexually suggestive and when they started putting together PPV caliber matches on cable TV they way WCW did for Nitro. Now, with no competition (TNA is NOT competition), the numbers have gone down a bit.
Other than that, Raw is better than Smackdown.
----
Tyger is right about the tag team division. WWE released a DVD some time ago which chronicled the greatest tag teams in wrestling history. I don't think we'll ever see another great tag team in the WWE again. Ever. Vince McMahon always breaks up teams. There will never be a tag team as dominant as Demolition, The Hart Foundation, Legion of Doom, The Rockers, Steiner Brothers, The Smokin' Gunns, and even the Allied Powers. The tag team scene will never be the same. I don't think I can remember the teams that fought for the tag titles in the last ten or eleven WrestleManias, but the WrestleManias before those I can probably tell you those matches off the top of my head.
The Intercontinental title scene is also another joke. Don't get me started on that one. These commentators have the audacity to tell the viewers such as, "Steve Austin used to be the IC Champ, and Shawn Micheals, so has Triple H." Yeah, and so has (pretty much) EVERY other superstar who has ever wrestled for that company. That title does not have the prestige as it once did when Mr. Perfect and Texas Tornado held it. I started losing interest in that belt after Shawn Micheals lost it for the last time.
Posted by tyger (Member # 17720) on :
As far as the tag team division, most of the time they seem to just throw two guys together for the sake of having tag team champions. Some times the pairing do not seem to make sense. In TNA there seems to be more sense with their pairings.
As far as the titles are concerned, there are to many titles and they do not mean what they used to mean. Does WWE really need to world champions and two woman's champions. I know they have a lot of talent, but it would make things more interesting if they cut back on a belt or two.
As far as the pay per views, I think there are to many of them. I remember when I first started watching wrestling there was four ppv's and it was 3-4 months between each of them. The matches always seemed to be great. If there was a bad match there was maybe one. Now there maybe one or two good or great matches. That is out of the 6-8 matches they typically have on a pay per view. I think they should only have six pay per views a year and really make the storyline more interesting.
Posted by eff (Member # 11277) on :
I wouldnt say that WWE ran the WCW/NWA out of business as much as I would say that the WWE and Vince Mcmahon single handedly destroyed wrestling.
You have to have a yin and a yang, the NWA was the yin to WWE's yang and once those monday night wars ended that was it for wrestling.
The WWE is a joke IMO and the only reason anyone would watch TNA is because WWE is so horrible that people will search for anything to watch in it's place.
So until another one of those old companies return to compete with the WWE wrestling is just kind of out in limbo, and so far TNA is not the answer.
Hogan might create a buzz for a little while but unless you have a large number of big names simultaneously flood TNA's doors he'll get bored and jump ship in the next 9 to 10 months.
Posted by blackHxC88 (Member # 15094) on :
quote:Originally posted by Salvy_Mic: As soon as the TNA started turning into wrestling's senior citizen circuit, I stopped caring.
angle got booted from WWE (from what i heard) Sting refused to go to WWE after WCW went under. if anything, TNA is 60% WCW 2.0 and 40% good (Knockouts, Styles and Joe, X Division)
Posted by Salvy_Mic (Member # 13384) on :
National, don't you remember when WWF (before they had to get the 'f' out) was in the spotlight constantly? I dunno, but I look around these days, and the only time anyone mentions the company these days is whenever they do a publicity stunt with celebrities (like the recent spate of guest hosts on RAW) or something to do with steroids. And as hard as they try with John Cena, he'll never be as huge as The Rock or Steve Austin if they keep pushing him in everyone's face as this crossover star with repeated movies, albums, and whatnot.
All the writers seem to be saying a similar thing, and I just don't seem to be that into this watered down version of the WWE(F) these days. There's no focus. If they're still mainstream, they're hanging on by a thread in my opinion.
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
quote:Originally posted by tyger: As far as the titles are concerned, there are to many titles and they do not mean what they used to mean. Does WWE really need to world champions and two woman's champions. I know they have a lot of talent, but it would make things more interesting if they cut back on a belt or two.
Does WWE really need two world champions?
Absolutely, yeah!
When WCW finally croaked, WWE took in a lot of their stars. The roster became overstaffed with WWE and WCW wrestlers.
At first, the world champion and the womens champion were the only wrestlers allowed to wrestle on the two brands. When a champion lost, the new champion had to wrestle on the two shows.
Then Brock Lesnar decided that as champion, he would exclusively wrestle on Smackdown, never for Raw. That's when they decided to have two champions. Otherwise, either a WHOLE bunch of wrestlers were never going to see a world championship OR the title was going to change hands every week or two.
WWE saved itself by splitting the roster in half and having a WWE Champion and a World Champion represented its company. Now, we have wrestlers deserving to be world champions, serving as world champions.
The shows are a LOT more interesting this way. This gets the viewers to tune into their shows more often. Because each show has a world champion. Moreover, the WWE championship and the World title are 100,000 times more relevant and prestigious than that TNA championship.
There needs to be an Intercontinental champion and a United States champion. Since the U.S. championship was reinstituted, that has meant more than the IC belt. The U.S. belt is now what the IC was from 1979 to 1996.
The tag team belts should be unified. This way, tag teams are now under a new impression that they must stay together longer if they want another tag team dynasty.
There is no need, however, for two womens titles. The Divas title is a joke. It sounds like a title you win at a beauty pageant more than a wrestling contest.
----
WWE is no joke, my friend. Although it is watered down, it's still the most prominent wrestling company in the WORLD. Then, now, and always. TNA wants NO part of WWE.
Did you know that more people watch ECW than TNA? MORE PEOPLE WATCH ECW THAN TNA! They barely draw more viewers than TNA, but they get more people watching, nonetheless.
If you can't get past ECW, then you've got a LOT of work to do. WWE is TOO powerful, I'm telling you. They will never sink and they will put their next closest competition into extinction. TNA is messing with fire.
----
Yeah, Cena will not be as big as Rock or Austin no matter how hard they try to shove him in front to people's faces. But he's one hell of a competitor, there's no denying that.
Yes, I remember when WWF was such a big sensation back in 1997-98. But sex does sell. That's what WWE sold during that era more than any other time in its history. Salvy is also right when he said they've watered things down considerably. For example, John Cena's finishing move is the Attitude Adjuster when it was once was the FU. They even took out the "U" in STFU. The blatant sex and language is not there as it once dominated in 97-98.
In wrestling, steroids has always been synonymous with WWE, like Salvy said. That's always messed up, but controversy can make your product more prevalent. Controversy, no controversy, WWE will be wrestling's calling. Pro wrestling ends with WWE.
--National
Posted by eff (Member # 11277) on :
National, I dont know how old you are (maybe you dont remember the 80's) but wrestling is really going down the tubes because of the WW'E'.
When there is no competition you have no reason to put on your best show, and it also keeps you from being able to see other talent. It's like saying Michael Jordan would have been great dribbling up and down a basketball court alone, or that Muhammad Ali would be the greatest if he was only shadowboxing. We would never have appreciated these athletes and we would never have been able to see how great the Joe Fraziers or Scottie Pippens were either.
Once the WWF didnt have anyone to compete with the entire wrestling world changed for the worse.
Back in the 70's, 80's and 90's the WWF represented a certain 'entertainment' type of wrestling that you were, in a sense, "promoted to" while the WCW/NWA related more to the southern wrestling fan and seemed more 'real' if you know what I mean...wrestling promotions from Dallas, Georgia, Florida, Memphis, the Carolinas (and Minnesota) DEVELOPED the stars like the Road Warriors, the Von Erichs, Freebirds, Austin Idol, Jerry Lawler, The Four Horsemen, Ric Flair, Sting and the Ultimate Warrior, Hulk Hogan, Ricky Steamboat, Dusty Rhodes and even stars like The Rock and Steve Austin (who had to go through promotions in Dallas and Memphis before they made it) and they also gave you the option of watching a more mature show, if that's what you wanted see. It was like Ric Flair Vs. Hulk Hogan....stylin and profilin with any woman over 21 vs. cartoons, toys, and lunch boxes.
The WWF has locked down the entire wrestling world which makes it impossible for a young star to develop anywhere other than the WWF where Vince oversees everything.
Im sorry but this reminds me of what Don King did to boxing or what Al Davis is doing to the Raiders. Totally destroying what you supposedly love.
The WWE's shows are absolutely the worst that I've seen from a major wrestling promotion since the AWA started to go under, and if the WWE didnt already have nationwide fame they would've been outta here too.
In order to really get a grasp on how things have changed you have to remember how they were first.
John Cena? He would have been on the level of The Brooklyn Brawler if he were around back in the day.
[ November 19, 2009, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: eff ]
Posted by Drunk_24-7 (Member # 21781) on :
I agree with eff on most of that post. Wrestling is so much worse now than it was in the 80s and 90s it's not even funny but I do still find it good entertainment when there's nothing else on and it's fun to watch with the little fella. He's a big Cena fan and that's great. It's just not the same, nor will it be because the competition isn't there. Hogan or no Hogan, TNA will not be able to compete with WWF anytime soon. They're a good alternative for passionate wrestling fans fed up with the WWE and give alot of wrestlers unhappy with the WWE wether they were run out, or unable to keep up with the schedule or whatever the case may be. It gives them an oppertunity to make some money and entertain their long time fans. They're never going to be able to compete on the WWE's level unless they follow this signing of Hogan with signings of Austin & the Rock & Undertaker within the next year or so to go with him. They should be pushing guys like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Matt Morgan and the young guys and allowing them to carry the program with Hogan and Angle having title runs to foil them, but losing to them every so often.
Guys like Nash, Big Papa Pump, Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Booker T and these guys should be winning the odd match, but moreso putting the young guys over to build a future for the company in favor of creating their own stars. The downside to that though is that the old guys will stick with the company because the WWF's chewed em up and spit them out. The danger in promoting the young guys and the knockouts too much is that Vince can nab them anytime he wants when their contract expires. So instead of pushing the best wrestlers they have, (AJ and Joe) into main event status and focusing on the most exciting and entertaining areas where they have better talent than the WWE (Knockouts & X Division) they instead keep pushing the old guys killing the fan base who followed them because they used to be the alternative and anti-WWE. Now they're the WWE's leftovers and a cheap rip off of what WCW used to be with guys even farther past their prime and washed up then they were 10 years ago.
Hogan could be a good signing if he played either his take a beating, then Hulk out and win the match against anyone face gimmick, or his heel NWO leader type roll running a title reign by foiling guys like Joe, Styles, Morgan, Hernandez and Angle with help from a stable of the old guys who constantly lose to the younger guys. He could have showdown wins over Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Nash etc. one at a time and beat them all either by cheating in the NWO gimmick, or beat them in the Real American gimmick with the hulk up at the end to establish his rep and shockingly lose to a guy like Joe in a match straight up with no run in every so often. Instead, TNA never allow anything to progress because of all the washed up, passed prime egomaniacs. Every match seems to have to end with a run in which makes the product damn near unwatchable.
I used to watch TNA every week and watch their ppv's. I used to watch Raw every Monday and all their ppv's. Now I'll ususally catch a few minutes to an hour of Raw every two or three weeks or watch some of Smackdown or the Raw tuesday evening replay with the little fella. I hadn't even seen anymore than an an episode or two of TNA in about 6 months because I was so sick of the run ins and garbage finishes. I'm watching it right now though because this thread peaked my interest. I wanna see what they're going to do with Hogan. I'm also hoping Radio Personality Bubba The Love Sponge will get involved some how. He's good buddy's with Hogan and a funny and entertaining motherfucker who could do some much needed good for TNA. No matter what they'll never reach WWE like levels or become any serious sort of competition but they should be able to remain self sufficant and provide an outlet for the anti-wwf fan, an income for over the hill and unemployed wrestlers. I hope they're successful in this Hogan investment because if they can even get big enough to push the WWF a little bit, it will only make both companies better. However, I agree with National, that they'll float just above water for 5-10 years and if they're able to make any significant growth WWF will buy them out before they have to deal with any serious competition, and if they spend beyond their means and go under, WWE will bail them out and buy em up just for their archived footage to throw on WWE on Demand. They're on the road to nowhere as far as competition against McMahon but hopefully Hogan will make that road a little more interesting. As horrible a wrestler as he is, he's an entertaining and charasmatic dude and I'll be interested in seeing what he's up to as long as he's up to something.
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
I started watching a few months after WrestleMania V. Even though that was 1989, that does not mean I don't know what the history was before then. I know that competition makes things better. Ask the NFL and they'll testify to that statement. Ask the National League about competition and they'll tell you about how the American Association, the Union Association and the American Leagues gave them a run for their money. When those two leagues merged to become Major League Baseball, ask them about the Federal League and the Continental League giving them a scare. Competition keeps you awake.
The WWE is awake 24/7 because it is always on the lookout for anyone else trying to threaten its claim as the most successful pro wrestling organization in the world. If they were able to withstand what the AWA, WCW, ECW, and NWA were able to dish out, there is no reason to think that anyone else can put a stop to them. Wrestling is theirs, always and forever more. These other promotions went down because they lacked creativity, charisma, character, direction, and entertainment that the others failed to capture the audience on. Otherwise, they (or at least some of them) would still be here.
The WWF shows the absolute BEST that I've seen from a major wrestling promotion since Ever.
You talked about how wrestling was back in the 70s through the 90s. Yes, I know all of that. I remember their storylines being more difficult to understand because their shows were mature, in a sense, whereas the WWF starting in the mid 80s was catered towards children more than than any other organization. This explains how they related to Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, Zeus, Hercules, Big Boss Man, Tugboat, and all these other gimmicks. These surreal characters caught on with children, and I was one of them. They were the more popular guys and the storyline were WAY more compelling to get hooked to. The other guys (Georgia Championship Wrestling, as a great example) were too bland. Too "southern" for me. Eric Watts was garbage to watch.
The GREATEST moments in professional wrestling history came from the NWA, WCW, and the WWF(or E, whichever you prefer to call it). We're talking about North American promotions. We're not including Japan and Mexico. Nothing happened that was significant in the AWA, and TNA will not have its moments, either.
Hey, did you know they show the AWA on ESPNs Classic? It comes on every night at 10- or 11 o'clock. That show was worse then than what TNA is today.
I respect and cherish its history, which is why I try to read up on as many history books as I can about the sport.
I'm not too amped up about Cena, either (unless he turns heel). But, I would want him on my team if my life literally depended on it. And you would, too.
There are a few things I don't like about WWE. One of them being how they refer to someone as being "one of the greatest champions in sports entertainment." Sports entertainment? It's as if they get a sore throat if they said professional wrestling. Every sport is entertainment. In any other sport they would call him one of the greatest in baseball history, for example. They don't use the words sports entertainment. You'll hear the WWE use this term quite often right after someone passes away and they have a video montage of what that person meant to the sport. Lou Albano was one of the greatest managers in sports entertainment. Not WRESTLING, sports entertainment. That really irks me.
MLB provides the GREATEST baseball anyone can watch. The NFL is the BEST in football. FIFA, the BEST in soccer. NBA, basketball. NHL, hockey. NFS (Need For Speed), car racing. What, you guys thought it was Nascar? But you get what I'm saying. WWE, professional wrestling.
WWE is the most prominent figure in pro wrestling. It is here to stay on top forever. Anyone in North America competing against it, will have a dead fish sent to its front door as a message of what to come for them in the future. TNA got there's. Soon, WWE will cash in on its promise to have TNA cease of all operations.
I love corruption. The WWE will corrupt any other opponent just so that they remain as the sole, and pure, providers of wrestling. Just how I like it.
--National
[ November 20, 2009, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: National ]
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
quote:Originally posted by Drunk_24-7: Guys like Nash, Big Papa Pump, Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Booker T and these guys should be winning the odd match, but moreso putting the young guys over to build a future for the company in favor of creating their own stars. The downside to that though is that the old guys will stick with the company because the WWF's chewed em up and spit them out. The danger in promoting the young guys and the knockouts too much is that Vince can nab them anytime he wants when their contract expires. So instead of pushing the best wrestlers they have, (AJ and Joe) into main event status and focusing on the most exciting and entertaining areas where they have better talent than the WWE (Knockouts & X Division) they instead keep pushing the old guys killing the fan base who followed them because they used to be the alternative and anti-WWE.
This explains why ECW kept Rob Van Dam as its Television champion for what seemed like forever. They were fearful that if he was pushed to the main event status, WWE would grab him in a second.
TNA can do the same with Styles, and Daniels. Eventually, WWE will have its say. Should they decline their offer, they should stay with TNA for as long as possible. Because when their contracts run out again, and WWE takes them, they will make those two look ridiculous by not pushing them to main event status.
--National
Posted by tyger (Member # 17720) on :
quote:Originally posted by National:
I love corruption. The WWE will corrupt any other opponent just so that they remain as the sole, and pure, providers of wrestling. Just how I like it.
--National [/QB]
I think some competition is good. Like the Monday Night Wars between WCW and WWE, it my opinion it just makes things a little more interesting.
Posted by Drunk_24-7 (Member # 21781) on :
quote:Originally posted by National:
quote:Originally posted by Drunk_24-7: Guys like Nash, Big Papa Pump, Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Booker T and these guys should be winning the odd match, but moreso putting the young guys over to build a future for the company in favor of creating their own stars. The downside to that though is that the old guys will stick with the company because the WWF's chewed em up and spit them out. The danger in promoting the young guys and the knockouts too much is that Vince can nab them anytime he wants when their contract expires. So instead of pushing the best wrestlers they have, (AJ and Joe) into main event status and focusing on the most exciting and entertaining areas where they have better talent than the WWE (Knockouts & X Division) they instead keep pushing the old guys killing the fan base who followed them because they used to be the alternative and anti-WWE.
This explains why ECW kept Rob Van Dam as its Television champion for what seemed like forever. They were fearful that if he was pushed to the main event status, WWE would grab him in a second.
TNA can do the same with Styles, and Daniels. Eventually, WWE will have its say. Should they decline their offer, they should stay with TNA for as long as possible. Because when their contracts run out again, and WWE takes them, they will make those two look ridiculous by not pushing them to main event status.
--National
Exactly. If Syles and Joe were running TNA the way they should be based on their talent when their contract came up Vince would offer them more money to come to the big show but would spend the first two years of a 3 year contract or the first four years of a 5 year contract humilating them in ridiculous gimmicks at mid card status to show the impression that the best wrestlers in other organizations are midlevel at best in the WWE. After a year or two or three of hard work with their heart and pride questioned if they stick to the WWE their undenyable talent may allow them to get the push they deserve as RVD finally was rewarded with a brief title run that he blew himself by getting caught by the cops with weed and painkillers travelling between shows. CM Punk if finally working his way into main event status on Smackdown, but he'd probably have to go the same drawn out process to prove himself a top dog on Raw should he move over to the main show. So if a guy like Styles and Joe are content with the money they would make in TNA, the oppertunity to showcase their talent and try and help the company progress could prove reason to stick around dispite Vince's offers. Sting always held out for that very reason and remains the only real legend who never went to the WWF at some point. If their motivation is money, Vince can give them more at any time, but he'll get his money's worth by making jokes of their careers for a little while as a backhanded way to run the former company in which they excelled thru the mud. If they're motivation is the integrity of the business and the legacy of their career's they might be tempted to stay in a company like TNA for less money if they feel they're being treated fairly and given an oppertunity to be the best that they can be. When TNA goes and promotes washed up has been like a Booker T or a Jeff Jarrett or a Mick Foley or a Scott Stiener or perhaps even a Hulk Hogan over these guys, in essance their telling them to check their integrity at the door and at the same time pushing them out the door to the WWE if an when they get an offer. I could see pushing Hogan to a quick and brief title run to establish a feud with the best of these guys but ultimately their best talent is guys like Kurt Angle, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Matt Morgan, Christopher Daniels, Abyss, Homicide, Hernandez, Bobby Rood, etc. and they should be right in the mix in the title pictures. Guys like Nash, Stiener, Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Ryhno and Booker T should only win every now and again but mainly be used to put the younger talent over and help them develop. WWF doesn't want em anymore and TNA provides em with a payday to keep doing what they've always done. They'll never be as mainstream as the WWE. The main reason WCW failed was because too many inflated egos didn't allow for any talent to develop or any history to unfold. Nobody wanted to job so every match was a run in, nobody could cleanly beat anyone, and nothing could progress. This seems to be the direction TNA is headed and unless they turn the ship in a hurry they're going to run aground just as WCW did when they got oversacturated with washed up, overpaid has beens who wouldn't accept a role that would allow the company to progress. It's fine to have one or two guys like that, (Hogan and Sting would probably be the best guys to keep as main eventers who usually win) but when you have 6 or 7 guys who won't job to a younger, charismatic and more talented kid who should be elevated into main event status, it becomes a problem and creates the main issue that most WWE fans of TNA originally tuned in to get away from.
WWE is mainstream and most wrestling fans are mainstream males in about a 5-75 year old demographic. For most of those people who enjoy wrestling, 2 hours of Monday Night Raw a week is enough. For others, 2 hours of Raw, 2 hours of Smackdown, an hour of ECW and a PPV every month is plenty for even the biggest of wrestling fans. Vince McMahon has the market cornered.
For the most part the people who watch TNA are either fans of both companies who just can't get enough wrestling or fans who hate the WWE but enjoy pro wrestling and are looking for a more wrestling based and talent based alternative as opposed to the soap opera side the WWF has exploited and run with to the point of it making up the majority of the show, or casual wrestling fans who'll watch wrestling when it's on and find Thursday evening's on Spike a more convient time to grab a wrestling fix than Monday or Friday nights. That fan base could allow them to survive as a company but it's not going to be even a drop in the bucket as far as a competition to McMahon's WWE empire. TNA have to make all the right moves in order to so much as survive, anything that alianates any of their fans could spell disaster and even if they hit and surpass expectations in terms of growth, they'll never get to the level the WWF is on. Ever. Hopefully they'll provide just enough competition to make WWF better it's product a little bit while providing a solid alternative and entertaining extra for die hard wrestling fans, and a payday for those Vince doesn't have room to give an oppertunity to or those he has blackballed and run out of the company.
Posted by Salvy_Mic (Member # 13384) on :
You know what, a guy committed to overthrowing Vince McMahon and destroying the WWE from within would be a fantastic gimmick for a wrestler with top notch talent on the mic and in the ring and a lot of charisma, especially if he didn't have his formative years in the WWE.
CM Punk, I'm looking at you.
Posted by blackHxC88 (Member # 15094) on :
quote:Originally posted by Drunk_24-7:
quote:Originally posted by National:
quote:Originally posted by Drunk_24-7: Guys like Nash, Big Papa Pump, Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Booker T and these guys should be winning the odd match, but moreso putting the young guys over to build a future for the company in favor of creating their own stars. The downside to that though is that the old guys will stick with the company because the WWF's chewed em up and spit them out. The danger in promoting the young guys and the knockouts too much is that Vince can nab them anytime he wants when their contract expires. So instead of pushing the best wrestlers they have, (AJ and Joe) into main event status and focusing on the most exciting and entertaining areas where they have better talent than the WWE (Knockouts & X Division) they instead keep pushing the old guys killing the fan base who followed them because they used to be the alternative and anti-WWE.
This explains why ECW kept Rob Van Dam as its Television champion for what seemed like forever. They were fearful that if he was pushed to the main event status, WWE would grab him in a second.
TNA can do the same with Styles, and Daniels. Eventually, WWE will have its say. Should they decline their offer, they should stay with TNA for as long as possible. Because when their contracts run out again, and WWE takes them, they will make those two look ridiculous by not pushing them to main event status.
--National
Exactly. If Syles and Joe were running TNA the way they should be based on their talent when their contract came up Vince would offer them more money to come to the big show but would spend the first two years of a 3 year contract or the first four years of a 5 year contract humiliating them in ridiculous gimmicks at mid card status to show the impression that the best wrestlers in other organizations are midlevel at best in the WWE. After a year or two or three of hard work with their heart and pride questioned if they stick to the WWE their undeniable talent may allow them to get the push they deserve as RVD finally was rewarded with a brief title run that he blew himself by getting caught by the cops with weed and painkillers traveling between shows. CM Punk if finally working his way into main event status on Smackdown, but he'd probably have to go the same drawn out process to prove himself a top dog on Raw should he move over to the main show. So if a guy like Styles and Joe are content with the money they would make in TNA, the opportunity to showcase their talent and try and help the company progress could prove reason to stick around despite Vince's offers. Sting always held out for that very reason and remains the only real legend who never went to the WWF at some point. If their motivation is money, Vince can give them more at any time, but he'll get his money's worth by making jokes of their careers for a little while as a backhanded way to run the former company in which they excelled thru the mud. If they're motivation is the integrity of the business and the legacy of their career's they might be tempted to stay in a company like TNA for less money if they feel they're being treated fairly and given an oppertunity to be the best that they can be. When TNA goes and promotes washed up has been like a Booker T or a Jeff Jarrett or a Mick Foley or a Scott Stiener or perhaps even a Hulk Hogan over these guys, in essence their telling them to check their integrity at the door and at the same time pushing them out the door to the WWE if an when they get an offer. I could see pushing Hogan to a quick and brief title run to establish a feud with the best of these guys but ultimately their best talent is guys like Kurt Angle, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Matt Morgan, Christopher Daniels, Abyss, Homicide, Hernandez, Bobby Rood, etc. and they should be right in the mix in the title pictures. Guys like Nash, Stiener, Sting, Jarrett, Foley, Ryhno and Booker T should only win every now and again but mainly be used to put the younger talent over and help them develop. WWF doesn't want em anymore and TNA provides em with a payday to keep doing what they've always done. They'll never be as mainstream as the WWE. The main reason WCW failed was because too many inflated egos didn't allow for any talent to develop or any history to unfold. Nobody wanted to job so every match was a run in, nobody could cleanly beat anyone, and nothing could progress. This seems to be the direction TNA is headed and unless they turn the ship in a hurry they're going to run aground just as WCW did when they got supersaturated with washed up, overpaid has beens who wouldn't accept a role that would allow the company to progress. It's fine to have one or two guys like that, (Hogan and Sting would probably be the best guys to keep as main eventers who usually win) but when you have 6 or 7 guys who won't job to a younger, charismatic and more talented kid who should be elevated into main event status, it becomes a problem and creates the main issue that most WWE fans of TNA originally tuned in to get away from.
WWE is mainstream and most wrestling fans are mainstream males in about a 5-75 year old demographic. For most of those people who enjoy wrestling, 2 hours of Monday Night Raw a week is enough. For others, 2 hours of Raw, 2 hours of Smackdown, an hour of ECW and a PPV every month is plenty for even the biggest of wrestling fans. Vince McMahon has the market cornered.
For the most part the people who watch TNA are either fans of both companies who just can't get enough wrestling or fans who hate the WWE but enjoy pro wrestling and are looking for a more wrestling based and talent based alternative as opposed to the soap opera side the WWF has exploited and run with to the point of it making up the majority of the show, or casual wrestling fans who'll watch wrestling when it's on and find Thursday evening's on Spike a more convient time to grab a wrestling fix than Monday or Friday nights. That fan base could allow them to survive as a company but it's not going to be even a drop in the bucket as far as a competition to McMahon's WWE empire. TNA have to make all the right moves in order to so much as survive, anything that alianates any of their fans could spell disaster and even if they hit and surpass expectations in terms of growth, they'll never get to the level the WWF is on. Ever. Hopefully they'll provide just enough competition to make WWF better it's product a little bit while providing a solid alternative and entertaining extra for die hard wrestling fans, and a payday for those Vince doesn't have room to give an oppertunity to or those he has blackballed and run out of the company.
last i heard, Booker T is gone, Jarrett got ran out of his OWN company, Scoot Steiner apparently can barely walk now, and idk how team 3-D still have jobs there. Nash and Foley i have no problem with, but the rest of them can sod off. but i usually watch RAW for the cringe/BAH GAWD OVERCOME THE ODDS fix, ECW just for Zack Ryder (inb4 faggot), smackdown because it's the better show, and TNA cause of the knockouts and Styles.
Posted by eff (Member # 11277) on :
I'm sorry and I know this is a late response but I just saw this:
Hey, did you know they show the AWA on ESPNs Classic? It comes on every night at 10- or 11 o'clock. That show was worse then than what TNA is today.
LOL! National (If you're still around) that AWA show that comes on late at night on Classic is only showcasing the AWA when it was on it's way out...y'know on the downslope? AWA used to be the SHIT back in the day! They had Hogan, Road Warriors, Ventura, Andre....as a matter of fact, 90% of the WWF roster in the early 80's came from the AWA. ESPN Classic is only showcasing a certain era from the AWA because those are the only shows that they 'legally' can play on their network.
Trust me, the AWA legacy is much more than what u see on ESPN classic.
Posted by DennisIsEvil (Member # 11755) on :
TNA's big problem is they do absolutely nothing to market their stars. Sure you see Hogan doing rent a center commercials and sure Kurt Angle has appeared in a couple movies but for the most part anybody who didn't make their fame elsewheres is pretty much unknown to most people.
And why is that? Because TNA doesn't give their wrestlers any real exposure. I mean you look at WWE you see wrestlers for them doing commercials or appearing on shows but TNA does none of that. I mean Chris Jericho was in a Fitness magazine and some of WWE"S wrestlers recently were on "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?" WWE wrestlers also occasionally apear on Nickelodeon's kid's choice awards and WWE guys often show up on Saturday Night Live but yet no TNA. They also don't try to book their stars for things like autograph sessions or meet and greets at events like car shows and that.
Until TNA finally starts doing something to get their name out there they wll always be little more than the WWE retirement home.
And on that subject TNA needs to realize Hogan, Nash, Foley, Sting, and the other old stars are not the big draw anymore. They need to be used to help build up the younger stars but they're not the guys you should build the whole show around. don't try to recreate the "Attitude era" create the right now Era.
[ June 02, 2010, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: DennisIsEvil ]
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
quote:Originally posted by eff: I'm sorry and I know this is a late response but I just saw this:
Hey, did you know they show the AWA on ESPNs Classic? It comes on every night at 10- or 11 o'clock. That show was worse then than what TNA is today.
LOL! National (If you're still around) that AWA show that comes on late at night on Classic is only showcasing the AWA when it was on it's way out...y'know on the downslope? AWA used to be the SHIT back in the day! They had Hogan, Road Warriors, Ventura, Andre....as a matter of fact, 90% of the WWF roster in the early 80's came from the AWA. ESPN Classic is only showcasing a certain era from the AWA because those are the only shows that they 'legally' can play on their network.
Trust me, the AWA legacy is much more than what u see on ESPN classic.
My apologies there. I jumped the gun when I said that the AWA was worse than what TNA is today. I always appreciate the history of pro wrestling and I am seriously considering buying the DVD set chronicling the history of the AWA. Other than that, I do know of its history and the wrestlers who participated in that promotion long before things started to take a turn for the worse.
--National
Posted by eff (Member # 11277) on :
National: No worries, its all good. Trust me you'll enjoy those AWA Dvds.
DennisIsEvil: I think that TNA is still looking for it's "breakout star". Once that happens then they'll be able to put him out there and maybe start to get a little more exposure for the company. Kinda how WWF used Hogan's appearance in Rocky III to their advantage. Hogan did the Rocky movie and instantly became a known face to people who didnt even watch wrestling. WWWF owner v. mcmahon sr. didnt agree with the acting, fired hogan and he resurfaced in the AWA. They used him 'briefly' but made the mistake of letting him go and vince mcmahon jr RE-hired Hulk and used the fame that he was still ridin high on to put his company over the top.
Cartoons, commercials, music videos....etc...etc....
But make no mistake about it, it all started with Hogan.
If TNA can find one star to put them over, and use him properly everything else should be a snowball effect.
See at this point, the WWE(F) name is so large and well known in the mainstream that they can put any wrestler on just about any talk show, game show or reality show with no questions asked...
*Regis* "what? oh he's a WWE star? well bring him/her on....I'm sure we'll find something to do with 'em" LOL!
TNA needs to find that one star to get them going first.
[ June 02, 2010, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: eff ]
Posted by eff (Member # 11277) on :
Oh and let me also add, I'm glad that they switched back to a traditional ring....that other ring annoyed the hell out of me.
Posted by National (Member # 8568) on :
I'm also glad they switched back to the traditional ring. That six-sided thing never won me over.
TNA will never find that "breakout" star that'll put them on the map for as long as they have Hogan and his cronies running amok. They have to pass the torch onto a younger, more athletic and charismatic wrestler. I don't want to see WCW Rewind, and that's exactly what TNA is. I don't see how they can say that their better than WWE if just about half of their roster consists of former WWE stars? When they go to TNA they become "leftovers."
The only way WWE is going to chance their style on how to appeal to the masses is if TNA starts to get better number in the rating, inching closer and closer to what WWE averages. Only then will they consider TNA a threat and only then will they consider some drastic changes. Perhaps by going back to the raunchy side that coined the Attitude Era or something different. Right now, WWE is content with what they're producing.
Vince is a marketing genius. If push ever comes to shove, the WWE will come up with a plan to put TNA out of business.
--National
Posted by Salvy_Mic (Member # 13384) on :
AJ Styles and Samoa Joe are really the only guys over there who'd be able to make it in WWE right now, guys that would seem fresh and unique. Sure, hardcore guys would know what they're all about, but the casual (i.e.; WWE) fans would be into them. If you really want to ease them into the company, theoretically, I'd team Styles up with Evan Bourne and make them the highest-flying tag team since London and Kendrick, and with Samoa Joe, I'd probably have him come in, initially, as quiet, no bullshit, genre savvy, ass kicking enforcer/bodyguard for an established heel, but a guy who'd contrast as more of an honorable heel in comparison to his more cowardly boss. They're being wasted right now, and seriously, the old guard in WWE is ready to retire soon. Taker is getting old and banged up, Edge and Triple H have both indicated they could hang 'em up sooner than later, you never know with Jericho, and even guys like Mysterio, Kane, Big Show, Christian aren't getting any younger, leaving Cena and Orton as the two bonafide superstars, and guys like Swagger, Miz, Morrison, Kingston as the few youngsters around.
Posted by Explosivo57 (Member # 14342) on :
Joe needs to get back into ROH shape where he was tough fat and not just fat.
WCWTNA has an okay core, Nigel/Desmond Wolfe is good, The Pope is good but hes hurt now, AJ Styles is world class, The X division is awesome but they get like no showtime.
Dixie Carter has no idea what shes doing and Vince Russo sucks.
Posted by Patrick (Member # 1169) on :
I have been a wrestling fan for most of my life, which is 31 years. That being said, over the last few years I don't watch it at all anymore. I really liked the shows WWF/E put on in the 80s and 90s and then when WCW began grabbing some of the talent of WWF, they were good too.
I cannot say that WWE's product is good now. It isn't. It really isn't. Sure there are some good stars that I do like such as Orton, and Santino is freaking laugh out loudness anytime he's on. But seriously, within a 3 week gap leading to a pay per view, they will pit two stars that are on the card in a match together in tag matches, triple threat matches, etc. every week before. When you finally get to that PPV, it's the fourth time in four weeks that the two wrestlers have faced each other. It has no meaning. I liked it so much better when the only time they faced off prior was in a backstage fight or something. Make me want to see that match. How WWE writers can't figure that out is beyond me.
And for the titles... C'mon! Really? It's a good idea to have 2 world titles, the Intercontinental, United States, 2 tag team belts, etc. And it isn't like these guys stay on one show anymore. There are drafts, contracts expiring, trades, blah, blah, blah that put the wrestlers wherever they're needed whenever they're needed.
None of the above commentary is to say that TNA is better in any way over the WWE. To some, it's just a nice breath of fresh air to see some different talent not facing each other for the 17 time within 3 pay per view showings.
Patrick
P.S. And if I have to hear an announcer sell how some wrestler facing Kane or Mark Henry is the "biggest challenge of their career," I'll drop the F bomb. Those two guys lose more matches than the Brooklyn Brawler did.
Posted by Adam X (Member # 2872) on :
North American wrestling is in the shitter.
I know somebody will chime in with RING OF HONOR DUDE and I'll rightly ignore them and carry on with my post.
There needs to be a complete overhaul in most of what makes TV today and the people in charge are too stupid to see this so we get the crap we've been given.
Posted by Explosivo57 (Member # 14342) on :
DragonGate USA and CHIKARA is where its at, and EVOLVE is getting pretty good too
Posted by anflfan (Member # 7134) on :
I agree Patrick! Thats cool- I don't live too far from you and I remember the days when I use to go to WWF shows at the Capital Centre...those were the days. Whats really neat is I'm good friends with alot of past divas in wrestling that I grew up watching...go figure lol
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