quote:

---

Originally posted by Toesonthenoes:

Dont misunderstand what I am trying to say but another big problem in your cool country is the religion and the people who say that they are "rebirth christs"!
I mean if Bush really is a christ why he goes to Iraq and let kill innocent people for oil and tells everybody he is doing this for freedom of the Iraqui people?

---

No, the problem isn't religion, it's how religion is being used, perverted, to mask an underlying intent.

Just keep in mind what Jesus Himself said about this:
"A healthy tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a poor tree bear good fruit. Every tree is known by the fruit it bears; you do not pick figs from thorn bushes or gather grapes from bramble bushes. A good person brings good out of the treasure of good things in his heart; a bad person brings bad out of his treasure of bad things. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."
Luke 6:43-45

Bush can play up the whole "Christian" act, but he's only fooling himself. Look at the "fruit" Bush is bearing, and ask yourself if he's the "Christian" he claims to be. So again, it's not the religion that's the problem, it's the liar hiding behind it who is.
 

---

Posted by Toesonthenoes (Member # 2121) on :
 
Definatley it is the way how religion is being used!
I have to correct myself a bit about my words, special the word "rebirth", I meant "reborn"!
Sorry for my bad english, but Im learning.
Lou, you are very educated about bible and other stuff!
Bush is and will always be fooling himself, this is sad but true!
Its awful that he as first man in the states calls himself a christ and that the young children and students in USA may will see him as "good man for moral and freedom" !

I am very happy to hear and read that there are more persons like you who have there own opinion and didnt welcome all whats going on!
Really glad to hear that!
Thanks for reply!
 

---

Posted by lambskin (Member # 1542) on :
 

quote:

---

I mean if Bush really is a christ why he goes to Iraq and let kill innocent people for oil and tells everybody he is doing this for freedom of the Iraqui people?
Dont think that the war in Afghanistan will be over soon, the terrorists are happy that Bush is US-president again! They love an easy person like him to fight .
Do you know how many money Bush and his friends have "lost" in this "war"
I think with a small part of this $ a lot of people in USA could have health insurence, food and many things for normal living!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AFfootdude05:
What'd you guys think about this a few days or so ago when it happened. I think it was a wise move in a time when people argue that Bush isn't doing a good job or whatnot. It was funny and gave us a new view on how we see this First Lady.

---

I saw it too and thought at the time...For how long did they had to rehearse in order to pull that act? It doesn´t make me laugh, it just gives me chills because that sort of action is just to gain popularity, to show Bush and his wife as part of the People, regular persons. But it all sounds so fake, that in my eyes, it just has the opposite effect and shows what how apparencies are important and used to fool so many...
Just my opinion...
Kiss
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
Oh, my brothers and sisters, everyone is right here...
On the one hand, U.S. citizens are being fed bullshit on a daily basis by their t.v.s, and yes politicians are and have always been manipulatng the "facts" to meet their own selfish ends.

On the other hand, Al Queda is fucked in the ass, afgahnistan is back to ruling itself, and Iraq wiil be soon. It was and is a good thing to fight the assholes in the world and stop them from harming innocents. Saddam is a total asshole.
Let's not mince words here. He gassed hundreds of thousands of Kurds, invaded Kuwait, and funded terrorists.
He deserved to be ousted by force.
As for the butt-fukers who are car-bombing Iraq's civilian population, well, THEY are from SYRIA.
Hmmmm.

Let's recap: Americans are generally stupid and brainwashed, terrorists are getting fucked in the ass, and Europeans everywhere are still looking down their noses at the U.S. for participating in a holy war that's been going on for a thousand years.

What else is new?
What if the assholes killed hundreds of Spanish civilians and threatened more if they didn't pull out of Iraq?
Oh, wait, that already happened, and they acted like pussies and pulled out of Iraq.
France, Germany, and Britain were taking kickback money from Saddam in the "food for oil" program,
until we attacked.
How fashionable it is these days to criticize ANYTHING the US does.
"BOO HOO HOO. The big, bad US is bullying around those POOR Jihadists!!! If we only had the resources, we would too, but we don't, so we'll just sit on our asses and breed contempt for "Imperial America".
Why is it that nobody gaffs on G.Britain for it's 300 years of imperialism, and the fucked up scenarios which resulted from that and are still a big problem today? Let's talk about the Ottoman Empire being divvied up by G.Britain and then we'll see why the Middle East is still messed up.

And as for the money being spent on nationalized healthcare? I think health care is the best it can be when it's privatized, we get immediate treatment, and decent treatment at that, and don't have to wait around for our welfare-hospices to "get around" to treating us, while disease festers and we get sicker, as in Europe.
Doctors in Spain perform more C-sections than anywhere in the world, because they get more money from the welfare-state for them and they take less time than natural childbirth.
The QUALITY goes down, the wait times increase, and I hope never to see that crap here. Spend the money kicking ass.
 

---

Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
 
Lambskin: i think you are outnumbered in your political views here..maybe you should try selling ocean front property in Arizona instead
 

---

Posted by lambskin (Member # 1542) on :
 
That's pretty clever wrinklesguy. Did you think that one up by yourself or did you come across that in a book of witty remarks?

Maybe I should try logically explaining why its better that Al Queda is disbanded with many of its leaders in jail or dead to a group of fools....oh wait, that's what I'm doing here. There was one person whom I was having the above disagreement with. There was also another who supported what I had said as well. If you disagree perhaps you would care to enlighten me on your views.

My political views regarding this subject are simple: I want for myself, my family, and my friends to be able to go about our lives in this country without fear of terrorists. I don't think its fair that I can't see my fiancee off at her gait when she flies somewhere or cross over to Canada anymore without showing a passport and explaining my life history. This was all due to 9/11 and the terrorists who organized it. If you think for one second that we were better off 4 years ago when Al Queda had several fully operational terrorist training camps supported by the Taliban government of Afghanastan then you are a dead wrong.

We sat back for the previous 8 years and watched different sites of US intrest be attacked, including the WTC in '93, and did nothing. We knew they were operating out of Afghanastan, yet we didn't care. Then the way of life as we knew it was changed. Finally, we have a president who is not going to sit by and watch these twisted bastards plot and scheme on how to kill our citizens. Like I said before, I admit the Iraq war is debatable, but I know that we are more safe now than we were prior to 9/11.

[ May 22, 2005, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: lambskin ]
 

---

Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
 
Lambskin:Don't get me wrong here, i respect your views i was joking around a bit earlier . HOWEVER, we are NOT done in Afganistan though we think we are.We will NEVER be done completely in Iraq and now we are talking about poking around in Iran> c'mon What about the US Borders like Texas/Mexico? I live within 150 miles of it and travel alot by it.Border Patrol is a JOKE..it would be so easy for an Al-Qaida operative to sneak through and destroy us, and Bush does NOTHING to accuratly protect those borders.He masquerades as a Religious guy, and smooth talking all the American Sheep..err i mean public into a power of pride stance against the whole world like we are the most important country in the world..yes we are best, but not the only pig at the feeding trough.Let's agree to disagree before this thread gets out of hand and locked down.
 

---

Posted by Toesonthenoes (Member # 2121) on :
 
Yes, a really good idea , bro wrinklesguy, we should now stop it before we loose control as far we can say that here!
We shouldnt to each other!
Lets stop the political discussion right now,
and go back for having fun!
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
yes, a good idea toesonthnose...
If you will answer one question:
Would it have been better to do NOTHING in retaliation to the attack on 9/11?

Hmmm?
Would it have been better to NOT ferret out the wealthy and powerful Saddam Hussein who was a mass-murderer AND a major contributor to Al Quaida among other terrorist networks?

Would you rather have taken the UN's approach and sent them all a mean letter, or imposed sanctions that only hurt the average citizens of these countries, while the fat cats continue to illegally make a fortune selling oil to France and Germany?

So we might go ater Iran, or Syria...
Would that be such a bad thing?
Let's look at the big picture here:

Do nothing, and allow the opposition to propagate and strengthen actual ARMIES bent o the destruction of "The West", (INCLUDING YOU AND YOUR COMFORTABLE LITTLE PERCH IN EUROPE,) or fight with all you have to stop or at least delay the imminent destruction of a culture that is based on free-market economies and personal liberties.

Granted, the US/Mexico border is less than weak, but at least the topic's on the table, and they have already passed a more stringent driver's liscence law in congress, and more is on the way, I assure you.
So the republicans are pandering to religious zealots, at least we have a CONSTITUTION, which will keep them from erasing personal freedoms.
They can only go so far with that.

The bottom line is this:
Freedom isn't FREE.
Comparing the aid money going to tsunami relief with the money it costs to fight a war is not feasible here... Apples and oranges.

We give so much to EVERYBODY. Africa gets 8 BILLION to fight AIDS, Tsunami relief was up near 10 BILLION, Israel gets 8 BILLION annually, (unforunately,) along with every other cause out there, we give the most of any country on the planet. So how can you condemn anyone for trying to stop religious jihadists from continuing to wage war all over the globe?
What has your country done to help?
I want to know.
No more political discussion, indeed!
You never wanted a political discussion anyway toesonthenose, you just wanted to poke jabs at us because you don't like America. Oh well, join the club.

I hope in 20 years, when you are sitting there bouncing a grandchild on your knee, enjoying a sunny afternoon in your yard, thanking whatever god you choose to worship, that it dawns on you:

People laid their lives on the line and lost them to guarantee you the freedom to do so.
In fact, I hope you feel guilty for being so smug and idealistic. It would honor the dead more.
 

---

Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
 
If Iraq didn't turn into another Vietnam, i'd be in favor it.We have the technology to send in a highly trained group of special ops to take out all the major players in the terrorism realm, yet we chose the big bang method now we are in trouble, who is going to pay the billions and trillions of debt we are in ? Our grandchildren that you mention we are "bouncing on our knees"? yes. You say what is wrong with hitting Iran? hmm, let's see the country is 4-5 times the size of Iraq,and our troops are already spread thin in Iraq..that is just crazy man.
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
I don't see how you can even presume to compare the Iraq War (II) to Vietnam.
For one thing, Socialist Vietnam was being supplied by China and The Soviet Union, and it was in a JUNGLE.
Iraq for the most part is stand-alone, and terrorist networks, (even though THEY be supplied by Syria, Iran, etc.,) pale in comparison to the Communists.
As for the debt, well, I don't buy it. That's not a good enough reason to just sit here and feel guilty. The deficit can be interpreted in many ways, either pro or con, and technically, we're still paying for WWII. If you were around during that war, would you be sitting on your hands whining about a future deficit? Probably.
So we rack up trillions in debt.
Big deal.
I'd still rather spend money on war than socialist medical programs and welfare to fund the "gimme generation's" viagra prescriptions, or YOUR obviously deficient government education.
The question I pose to you is this:
Which is better?
A)Not fighting terrorism, and dealing with those results "later", or
B)Racking up trillions in debt to see this through, and then pay up "later".

The way I saw 9/11 was the beginning of the end of terrorism, and that won't come cheap or easy.

Pick one: A or B.

BTW, Special ops?!?
Don't you think that that option would have been exercised if it were AT ALL feasible?
Lay off the Clancy shooters for a while and give a listen to NPR, CNN, or Fox news. They may be biased, and BARELY reporting the truth, but dang, it would be more than what you're running on with your Splinter Cell option.
 

---

Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
 
As far as the debt and spending on lame medical programs, i myself am an independant hard working contractor and have no insurance because it is not economically feasable because the rediculous rates and overall Pain in the Ass it is to get, i agree that people need to be screened before getting any kind of services like a druggy wanting prescriptions for his headaches.Take a look at Canada's healthcare system and why it works so well.I agree that we needed to blast the terrorists away after 9-11, but us getting tied town with Iraq was a mistake, I KNOW the Halliburton company and Bush are making profit over there, too bad we are in debt like we are.Still paying for WW2, but the statistics show that we are in the worst debt in America's history.I'll be glad in 08' when W is gone..sure he seems like a cool guy to have a BBQ with but his ideas about running a country and all this Iraq stuff is out of hand..there's just too many points of view and everyone thinks they are right.We are screwed sorry to say.
 

---

Posted by lambskin (Member # 1542) on :
 
Sorry if I came off a little harsh, I suppose politics lights a fire in everyone's ass.

Vasduten, I agree with most of your points. And your wife's feet are hot (I saw the pics in the pictures section.

Wrinklesguy, I'm going to leave Iraq alone, but I do want to comment about 1 thing in your previous post.

First, I am sorry that you are unable to afford health insurance. Right now my parents pay a premium of $25,000 a year for theirs since my dad owns his own business. However, Canada's health care system doesn't work as well as we'd all like to think. I am a 3rd year resident at an American hospital about 30 minutes from the Canadian border. My hospital has an agreement to accept Canadian patients who need a higher level of care than they can receive in that particular city. I have too often seen a 40-50 year old person treated with thrombolytics (clot busting drugs) for a heart attack in Canada, then transferred here when they don't work. At this point they are critically ill requiring ventilation and medications to keep their blood pressure up. The definative and superior treatment for a heart attack is a heart catheterization with angioplasty and stenting, however, in this city of 500,000 they can only get this done during business hours a couple of days a week. I took care of a 50 year old man earlier this year, that both myself and the cardiologist are confident would have lived had he resided just 15 minutes closer here in America. He died because he received inferior care secondary to the rationing of healthcare created by socialized medicine. My fiancee's parents live in a town of about 10,000 in the US and yet if, God forbid, one of them were to have a heart attack they would be able to have a heart catheterization in their own town.

Why is it that a city of half a million people in Canada can not receive definative care for a heart attack...because socialized medicine reduces health care resources and rations it. That is the price they pay for everybody having insurance. Need a CAT scan in Canada? Better be prepared to wait weeks to months to get it done. Or you can cross the bridge into the US and get it done the next day. Our health care system is certainly flawed and needs help, however, socialized medicine is not the answer.
 

---

Posted by Toesonthenoes (Member # 2121) on :
 
Hey vasduten!
You cant take a bit of the hard truth, or?
Your words are telling me that!
By the way, if I wouldnt like USA, I wont mind what the US government was doing or will do next!
For me the contrary is the point! I feel angry about the whole situation!
Believe it or not, Im a big fan of your country for several reasons but I wont take a look anymore to actions from people who are now leading it! Because people all around the world are afflicted in some of them(f.e. environment, I just say Kyoto)
And I dlike to discuss this+that and I want to know why and what some americans or other think about it!
And, of course the president had to do something after 9/11! His first reaction was really good and this is why every other country was with USA!
To catch Hussein was a well done job! And I really hope that foe #1 , Bin Laden, will be caught soon too!
But why is he always one step ahead?

You tell me that Im smug and idealistic cause of my opinion about Bush and his actions?
You are now very personal only because I dont agree with you! Its interesting, like if "Im not with you than I must be against you", right?
But ok, I take it like you said!
I know about the american patriotism but every dead soldier(whether american or not) is one too much! And you have lost too many, and what for?
To "help" people to get "Democrazy and Freedom" ! Go to families who lost their child and exchange views! Or have you already done this?

And what big Austria is doing to help out in the world is very simple:
#give money(but not so much like US because we are a bit smaller)
#find dialog with everybody, because we like to talk things over
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
LOL...
This IS an interesting topic!
First, Lambskin took the words right out of my mouth, but since he has a background in the medical field, I'll leave it at "what he said".
Wrinklesguy, you are way off-base, and I hope you are paying attention here, I want you to learn.

Toesonthenose, I was only saying that I am sick of the smug view the Europeans generally take on this whole situation. If I misunderstood you I am sorry.

Also, the truth is that war IS almost always the answer.
Not talking our way out of it...
War solves problems. Killing people shuts them up for good.
I do like SOME of the ideals of the 60's, but do not agree with John Lennon when he holds a "peace conference" naked and in bed with his ugly and hairy wife, while holding signs that say "Hair = Peace".
But I digress, and that was then, this is now.

Toesonthenose, I apologize.
It's ok to dislike Bush and his policies.
I don't like him either, and the Republican Party, hich used to stand for personal freedoms and LESS government, is doing nothing to curb spending, while wasting time acting as an organ for the religious zealots. Hell, as evidenced in yesterday's failure to stop the "Minority Rights Filibuster" bullshit that the Democrats were presenting to bar judicial nominees, the republicans won't even defend the Constitution or it's proceedings to elect new judges.

(BTW, MINORITY RIGHTS?!? You have the right to vote. You voted and lost. You now have the right to sit the fuck down and shut up. ugh... politicians!)
I would have voted Libertarian, but they had no real stance on national security, and I was not a fan of their candidate and his running mate from CA. I live in GA, and my state was going to go Bush, so what's the point? I didn't even vote.
I certainly would not vote Democrat.

So there, Austria supports "the effort", monetarily, and I don't like Bush either.
That's all I wanted, toes, was for you to back up your claims and tell me what country you were from.
 

---

Posted by Toesonthenoes (Member # 2121) on :
 
Glad to hear that, vasduten!
Thank you for taking my responds so serious!
In no country everything is running correct, best example is mine, because our federal chancellor has no opinion for his own, he says yes to everything which comes from EU, he is a coward!
I fully understand that you are tired of what comes sometimes from Europe or anywhere!
I always have discussions with my gf because of the same stuff!
I always fight back because not the american people are doing this, no, the f***ing politicans are responsible for desaster!
In Europe there is so much generalizing and this is so wrong!
You are very right, that damned f**ing war is almost the answere , very very hard, but behind this scenario is always the money from the rich!

As sad the situation might be now, for my person I know that my future is somewhere in USA and this is why Im so interested in US-politics !
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
Wow, glad to hear that you are considering coming to the US.
I would like to take the opportunity to welcome you here, and I would recommend Atlanta as a nice place to live.
The weather is GORGEOUS, the women are GORGEOUS, and the real estate is VERY affordable.
Plus, I know a few Romanians who have relocated here and LOVE it!
Also, I know a couple of guys from Bosnia who live here too.
One can buy a home for less than $150,000 USD, and that's in a nice neighborhood. It's a great place to start out a family, or just live.
If you do decide to visit, I would be glad to show you around.
 

---

Posted by BOB MARLEY (Member # 2743) on :
 
Well, no politricks will ever concern me. I don't fear Atomic energy because man can't destroy the world, man can only destroy themselves. Rather it be Demopublican or Republicrat... none of them can stop the time, seen? Well, I'm not here to fight flesh and blood or bash others opinions just sayin....Don't worry about what bush does or why... stay true to yourself...because in the end, you will have to speak for yourself....by yourself.......think about it... Jah Bless
 

---

Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
 
Vasduten: Like i said, there's too many opinions on this certain subject to for sure say one is correct over the other..let's agree to disagree
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
No problem, wrinkles, I'm pretty good at agreeing to disagree!
 

---

Posted by lambskin (Member # 1542) on :
 
Vasduten, you forgot to mention the murder suspects hanging out on 350 ft cranes for over 2 days. Just kidding, Atlanta is a very nice city. There are a lot of nice subburbs as you mentioned.
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
LMAO, lambskin...
That guy has been up there for like 48 hours, using a wrench to undo bolts that he finds. I guess he's trying to disassemble it?
They ought to drop a sticky net on him and lower his ass to the ground or something...
Or they could just shoot him...
He did just kill his gf.
What an ass.
 

---

Posted by Toesonthenoes (Member # 2121) on :
 
Thank you very much for your kind offer, vasduten!
Sorry that my answere is coming late but last weekend was so hot(30+°C) that I liked to go swimming!
Well my plans about USA is that I want to do it in the next years if I have saved some money !
I had been in Atlanta one time (Feb.1999), it was a bit cool and dusty but still very nice!
It must be cool to live there!
How is the weather during summertime ?
 

---

Posted by vasduten (Member # 2211) on :
 
The weather is nice!
Some say it's too hot for them, but I like it!
The averabge temperature in june is 87 degrees F, avg. in July is 88 F, and the avg. in January is 54 F.
It is usually in the 50's for the winter months, very little snow if any, but here and there an ice storm!
It is a great climate for feet!
 

---

Posted by Toesonthenoes (Member # 2121) on :
 
Thanks a lot for info!
I really should go there again as soon as possible!
In 1999 we havnt seen much cause it was kind of buisness trip, just 3 days in Atlanta, one day a bit sightseeing (very big shopping house, downtown and a special, very old little house outside town) because we came from Florida !
 

---