Man, there's this politician guy who has these ideas and I don't agree with some of them so he's a dirty Commie. Before him was another politician guy who had some other ideas that I didn't completely agree with therefore he's a filthy Fascist.
I just felt the need to complain about it because I live in the richest most powerful and most stable country in the world and the actions of a small group of people in a small window of time will most certainly be the end of it.
Luckily all the problems everyone faces are so cut and dry that pundits on TV can all simultaneously be experts in every matter of politics and life. Good thing they're around to show us how simple it all is.
Meanwhile there are people under the rule of real communists and fascists with no money, power, stability, freedom...
Posted by Groovyfacey (Member # 35475) on :
Mmm...that's good satire.
Posted by Mona (Member # 8351) on :
quote:Originally posted by ozkar: Luckily all the problems everyone faces are so cut and dry that pundits on TV can all simultaneously be experts in every matter of politics and life. Good thing they're around to show us how simple it all is.
Exactly! How would we know who the pinheads are if it wasn't for them!
Posted by guitardrew (Member # 6635) on :
Wow, my feelings more or less excactly! Its amazing how many terms are now being thrown around as buzzwords without anyone knowing the true definitions or examples of where the term came from.
Posted by Five For Feet (Member # 33596) on :
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
quote:I just felt the need to complain about it because I live in the richest most powerful and most stable country in the world and the actions of a small group of people in a small window of time will most certainly be the end of it.
You say this is jest, not understanding the trueness of the statement weather you want to believe it or not. All it takes is the flick of a pen across some stupid Bill and our freedoms are over..albeit slow not instant for the "frog in boiling water" analogy.
Posted by -cfg- (Member # 13863) on :
A+
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
What the fuck is with the xenophobic nature of Americans towards communists ffs!?
It even worked reasonably well in Russia - obviously putting aside the dictatorship - then when we forced parliament or the dumas or w/e they call them now they're in poverty and wishing Lenin was alive.
What is it about Communists that Americans have an unfaltering hatred towards when it doesn't even affect them?
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
Because America was founded on different Freedoms and Principles and God given rights while communist countries are not. That is what makes America so great, is our founding documents and the men who created them.
In every Communist country, the people have always been the oppressed and relatively poor overall and quite un successful, this is fact.
A true Capitalist society with a strong middle class {USA circa 1946-1950's} is the best model for successful governance supposing it doesn't get out of hand and turn into a Corporate Oligarchy run by an oversize gov't {like communist} and the big megabanks on Wall Street.
[ November 22, 2010, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Wrinklesguy ]
Posted by GQguy (Member # 16534) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andy-Laa: What the fuck is with the xenophobic nature of Americans towards communists ffs!?
It even worked reasonably well in Russia - obviously putting aside the dictatorship - then when we forced parliament or the dumas or w/e they call them now they're in poverty and wishing Lenin was alive.
What is it about Communists that Americans have an unfaltering hatred towards when it doesn't even affect them?
It is very real here. Almost an inevitability. For most this is very scary. There has been a movement left for the past 200+ years in the U.S. If one understand communist theory one will note that a TRUE communist state must first transition from pure capitalist to capitalist/socialist to socialist to communist. Guess where we are? We been slowly moving towards socialism since FDR and the "New Deal" but with both parties endorsing bail outs for big banks we've taken a huge step forward. Like most things in life, once you make that jump it's tough to go back.
Is moving left bad? It depends on who you are. If you have cash...it's very bad! If you're poor like most Americans...it's good for you....but...many will be convinced by the rich that it's bad. For many lazy people....it's good. For many poor hardworking it's good. China's growing prosperity and our percieved dwindleing prosperity makes us even more wary of communism.
Hope that helps!
GQ
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: Because America was founded on different Freedoms and Principles and God given rights while communist countries are not.
Yes. "All men are created equal" is a horribly ridiculous idea, isn't it?
quote:In every Communist country, the people have always been the oppressed and relatively poor overall and quite un successful, this is fact.
China? Cuba? And you have what you need is the point in Communism. Not to be a greedy middle-upper class twat who'd never dream of giving to "the lesser people"
quote: A true Capitalist society with a strong middle class {USA circa 1946-1950's} is the best model for successful governance supposing it doesn't get out of hand and turn into a Corporate Oligarchy run by an oversize gov't {like communist} and the big megabanks on Wall Street.
...that's what's happened. Twice.
...might imply to someone that capitalism is non-workable due to the fact it is essentially based on greed.
Perhaps Marx was right (about the cycle - Feudalism to capitalism to Communism). There's just no time scale, so it's not possible to say he was right or wrong yet.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by GQguy: It is very real here. Almost an inevitability. For most this is very scary.
I don't get why though (It's scary I mean).
quote: There has been a movement left for the past 200+ years in the U.S. If one understand communist theory one will note that a TRUE communist state must first transition from pure capitalist to capitalist/socialist to socialist to communist. Guess where we are? We been slowly moving towards socialism since FDR and the "New Deal"
Well Hoover was absolutely fucking it up though. "The New Deal" worked, so I'd call that a win for America.
quote: but with both parties endorsing bail outs for big banks we've taken a huge step forward. Like most things in life, once you make that jump it's tough to go back.
Well...it *was* capitalism that made that neccessary unfortunately, though that's one things I was really against - bailing out the banks. (England are now bailing out Ireland now. Oh joy.)
quote: Is moving left bad? It depends on who you are. If you have cash...it's very bad! If you're poor like most Americans...it's good for you....but...many will be convinced by the rich that it's bad. For many lazy people....it's good. For many poor hardworking it's good. China's growing prosperity and our percieved dwindleing prosperity makes us even more wary of communism.
It wouldn't be "good" for lazy people. They wouldn't be working for themselves; they'd be working for the country and their neighbours etc.
Thing is - you hit the nail on the head there - the working class are the vast majority of any country and they are what keeps the wheel turning and yet they are hardly respected by the people they work for (they work for everyone). In a Communist society, they are equal and as deserving of respect as a doctor within the same social structure.
Also, yes China are doing amazingly...surely proving Communism works if properly managed?
quote: Hope that helps!
To a degree it does, but what you've outlined only tells me why Americans dislike the ideals, not why they seem to abhor the people.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
Again, you are still confusing Corporatism,the Wall Street Oligarchy and Greed with true middle/middle upper class grassroots capitalism.There's no need for Gov't bailouts and huge thefts of tax dollars when the business owners have the freedom and means to grow their business and hire. There's never a need for socialism in this country..some gov't intervention is necessary. Sorry you have to parrot the talking points.
What countries' middle class donates the most, or sends their Army out to help in disasters around the world? Yeah The USA. This country gives SO MUCH yet you say we're the greediest..certainly not the middle and upper class;maybe the Banksters.
Communist countries were not "started" on structurally sound principles that benefitted ALL, just those in charge. As opposed to the US, it was for 200 years a shining beacon of hope for all to make a living and have a good life free from oppression. Why would be people move in droves out of countries like China and Russia back in the day to come here if it wasn't "better"? come on man!
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
quote: Also, yes China are doing amazingly...surely proving Communism works if properly managed?
Because we dump trillions of dollars into cheap Chinese good at Wal-Mart and other stores per year propping them up, while they {had} propped our currency up by buying the Treasury Bonds {which has now stopped because of our wreckless socialist bailouts and mis-managed debt} forcing a QE2 by the FED to buy our own T-Bonds back from us...with our own money.
So yea, in essence...China's economy is booming, but it has NOTHING to do with Communism lol! They are more "true" Capitalist then the USA is right now.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: Because we dump trillions of dollars into cheap Chinese good at Wal-Mart and other stores per year propping them up
That's a hybrid of Communism and capitalism. More on the Communism side of things - trading with another country. Much in the same way in a genuine ideal Communist world (which hasn't existed yet btw - there has never been true Communism as the entire world would need to be involved in that)you'd grow/cook/rear/whatever produce for the community and they would do the same for you.
- to address your other post, yes Communism sprouts up in countries that aren't too stable. Guess what idealism they followed when they became unstable? Yes, Capitalism.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: What countries' middle class donates the most, or sends their Army out to help in disasters around the world? Yeah The USA. This country gives SO MUCH yet you say we're the greediest..
It just hit me what you said in this bit...
the devastation of Hurricane Katrina has still not been cleared up.
A working class, black community.
I wonder why...
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
I never argued Katrina and New Orleans..that was a disaster in it's own right that was never taken care of.
Without Capitalism, nothing would improve and some of the ammentities everyone uses and societal advancements would never have taken place. It's the business spirit that keeps the model growing, and is best practiced within the citizenry of a free society for the best possible quality of life. Even though we have some in need here in the USA, we still have it 10 times better than poorer Oligarchys or Communist regimes...this is fact.
Please learn the difference between the terms "Capitalism" and "Corporatism" and the way it relates to the meltdown of the US economy,the Banks, and Mega-Corp greed and how the citizens are not responsible for this.. while promoting middle class capitalism. Looks like you watched Michael Moore films too much. Post back when you get your terms corrected, until then..
[ December 08, 2010, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Wrinklesguy ]
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: I never argued Katrina and New Orleans..that was a disaster in it's own right that was never taken care of.
So your point about being a very giving country to the working classes is untrue then.
quote: Without Capitalism, nothing would improve and some of the ammentities everyone uses and societal advancements would never have taken place.
...but it's all stuff we wouldn't need in a Communist society.
quote: It's the business spirit that keeps the model growing, and is best practiced within the citizenry of a free society for the best possible quality of life. Even though we have some in need here in the USA, we still have it 10 times better than poorer Oligarchys or Communist regimes...this is fact.
Saying something is fact...doesn't make it fact.
Here's an actual fact: in Communist Russia, every family was fed and given work. In America, at any point in the past or present, can you say the same has ever been true?
quote: Please learn the difference between the terms "Capitalism" and "Corporatism" and the way it relates to the meltdown of the US economy,the Banks, and Mega-Corp greed and how the citizens are not responsible for this.. while promoting middle class capitalism. Looks like you watched Michael Moore films too much. Post back when you get your terms corrected, until then..
Please stop being a condescending prick who can't even acknowledge that his is not the only way of thinking.
Nowhere have I confused the two terms.
Capitalism relies on consumerism. Consumerism relies on the fact that some people have more money and power than others.
Communism agrees everyone is an equal human being and no more deserving of respect or the right to simply live than the next. It removes a class structure that is fast becoming out-dated to mean that everyone, in Capitalist terms is of, say a lower middle/higher working class. Why is equality something you are SO unwilling to understand?
And I've seen "Bowling for Columbine". Good documentary.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
I said we send out Aid and help in DISASTERS to foreign nations, I said nothing about the middle class here, then you mention New Orleans. Sure it's a problem and it should have been dealt with differently since they were our own people.
quote: ...but it's all stuff we wouldn't need in a Communist society.
That is almost so rediculous, I can't even find an answer that could be in the same league as such a rediculous statement..
quote: Here's an actual fact: in Communist Russia, every family was fed and given work. In America, at any point in the past or present, can you say the same has ever been true?
Yes, it's called welfare...hike your happy ass down and apply and prove you are poor.If families in the USA have gone hungry and not applied for aid, then not sure what to tell ya. God helps those who help themselves.
quote: Capitalism relies on consumerism. Consumerism relies on the fact that some people have more money and power than others.
Communism agrees everyone is an equal human being and no more deserving of respect or the right to simply live than the next. It removes a class structure that is fast becoming out-dated to mean that everyone, in Capitalist terms is of, say a lower middle/higher working class. Why is equality something you are SO unwilling to understand?
Capitalism is fueled by consumerism is fed by capitalism is fed by...yeah you get the point. We obviously have a higher standard and more consuming than most of the poorer nations and I don't condone that, however without the freedom of the Capitalist principles America would {and is becoming} a wasteland of stagnate promises and opportunity. I believe that we are all "created" equal from birth {minus some for other reasons} but by and large yea. We are not due anything, it is our own lot in life to seek the basic necessities. Those who get ahead farther will always be looked down upon by less fortunate and vice versa but so what?Life isn't fair. Be happy with what you have.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: I said we send out Aid and help in DISASTERS to foreign nations, I said nothing about the middle class here, then you mention New Orleans. Sure it's a problem and it should have been dealt with differently since they were our own people.
Ahh. Nothing like a double standard.
quote: ...but it's all stuff we wouldn't need in a Communist society.
quote:That is almost so rediculous, I can't even find an answer that could be in the same league as such a rediculous statement..
Not having a go, but it’s spelled “ridiculous”.
And you’re the one talking about “God given rights” and seem unable to view anything from any other perspective than a Capitalist one.
What things could you literally not live without due to Capitalism?
Also, you do know that Communist Russian technology was the epitome of what Americans of the time aspired to? Arms race, space race, espionage tools etc. etc. It’s still possible to produce technology with a Communist society.
quote: Here's an actual fact: in Communist Russia, every family was fed and given work. In America, at any point in the past or present, can you say the same has ever been true?
quote:Yes, it's called welfare...hike your happy ass down and apply and prove you are poor.If families in the USA have gone hungry and not applied for aid, then not sure what to tell ya. God helps those who help themselves.
If only God weren't the figment of a fairy tale...
Are you saying taking money from the country for doing nothing is akin to actually having work given to you by the country, for the country?
quote: Capitalism relies on consumerism. Consumerism relies on the fact that some people have more money and power than others.
Communism agrees everyone is an equal human being and no more deserving of respect or the right to simply live than the next. It removes a class structure that is fast becoming out-dated to mean that everyone, in Capitalist terms is of, say a lower middle/higher working class. Why is equality something you are SO unwilling to understand?
quote:Capitalism is fueled by consumerism is fed by capitalism is fed by...yeah you get the point. We obviously have a higher standard and more consuming than most of the poorer nations and I don't condone that, however without the freedom of the Capitalist principles America would {and is becoming} a wasteland of stagnate promises and opportunity.
You’re a capitalist country, yet you are unhappy with how things are and you can’t see how Capitalism has anything to do with it?
quote:I believe that we are all "created" equal from birth {minus some for other reasons} but by and large yea. We are not due anything, it is our own lot in life to seek the basic necessities. Those who get ahead farther will always be looked down upon by less fortunate and vice versa but so what?Life isn't fair. Be happy with what you have.
I’d love to hear what newborns, at birth, are not equal to other babies according to you…
Communism is basically sharing – think of those hippy commune farms and how ridiculously happy those fuckers are. They grow each other’s food, build each other’s houses and just generally contribute for the good of the community as a whole, NOT try to get ahead themselves. You hate the idea of helping others so as to become stronger as a group? You believe in the ole “Rugged individualism”?
And “So what?” well…that’s changeable. Why not change it?
Much like you seem to think I don’t know the difference between Capitalism and Corporatism, I don’t think you quite realise that there is a difference between a country whose corrupt dictator uses Communism to get ahead politically and forces it upon the people as a means to make the country economically more stable…and true Communism.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
quote: Ahh. Nothing like a double standard.
Send your complaints to:1600 Pennsylvania Ave. C/O: Barry Obama
quote: Also, you do know that Communist Russian technology was the epitome of what Americans of the time aspired to? Arms race, space race, espionage tools etc. etc. It’s still possible to produce technology with a Communist society.
SO? Technology has NOTHING to do with a political or philosophical leaning. We surpassed them and every other nation 10 times over by the end of the cold war.
quote: Are you saying taking money from the country for doing nothing is akin to actually having work given to you by the country, for the country?
If someone has exhausted all means, and does the foot work to help, then there should be a backstop for them...especially if they are completely down and out or disabled.
quote: You’re a capitalist country, yet you are unhappy with how things are and you can’t see how Capitalism has anything to do with it?
lol again, learn your terms before arguing a futile point. Corporate/Wall St. Greed is the downfall of this wonderful Country.
quote: I’d love to hear what newborns, at birth, are not equal to other babies according to you
I don't know, why don't you ask some of your buddies down at planned parenthood?
quote: Communism is basically sharing – think of those hippy commune farms and how ridiculously happy those fuckers are. They grow each other’s food, build each other’s houses and just generally contribute for the good of the community as a whole, NOT try to get ahead themselves. You hate the idea of helping others so as to become stronger as a group?
Where EVER did I say I was jealous of and or hated Hippies sharing from farm to farm? I support this idea, as well as building self sustaining communities away from the tentacles of big gov't. This has nothing do to with "Communism" other than the 6 letters "Communityism".
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: Send your complaints to:1600 Pennsylvania Ave. C/O: Barry Obama
You said you were a hugely giving country to those less fortunate. I proved otherwise. You don't deny it. Point made.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: SO? Technology has NOTHING to do with a political or philosophical leaning. We surpassed them and every other nation 10 times over by the end of the cold war.
You said it was a "rediculous" statement to make that one wouldn't need certain things one thinks they need within a Capitalist society - I assumed you meant technology. Perhaps you didn't. I still asked what couldn't you live without which wouldn't be provided by a Communist society? Still awaiting an answer…
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: If someone has exhausted all means, and does the foot work to help, then there should be a backstop for them...especially if they are completely down and out or disabled.
Physical disability doesn't mean you can't do paperwork or organise the community...there'd be no need for the welfare to exist outside of capitalism. It’s just a proverbial sponge of wastefulness. There will always be something that you can do for the benefit of other people within Communism. If they were so physically/mentally impaired by, for example being too old, then that’s the point of having a community behind you to support you as you supported them in the past.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: lol again, learn your terms before arguing a futile point. Corporate/Wall St. Greed is the downfall of this wonderful Country.
Teach me these terms I am so lacking. I guess doing an A-level in history/politics, studying the world wars, Communist Russia, America before, after and during the Wall Street Crash and the dawn of British politics makes me a complete retard, so enlighten me please.
And you changed your tack there, btw. All of a sudden it’s a wonderful country, not the land of broken promises you mentioned before. Interesting.
Oh and maybe answer the point about how Corporatism is an unavoidable part of Capitalism yet is absolutely not compatible with Communism. You don't like Corporatism, the only guaranteed way of it not existing is through Communism. As we agreed, Capitalism relies on Consumerism. Consumerism is just basically greed when you get down to it – on the part of those providing the product or service. It’s about overcharging to make a profit and cost-cutting. Not the concerns of the customer.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: I don't know, why don't you ask some of your buddies down at planned parenthood?
Why is this about me? You mentioned some babies are not equal from the moment of their birth. What babies? and why? is what I asked. I didn't make a potentially disgustingly intolerant statement like "some babies are better than others" which really is what it implies you think. What? Non-white babies don't deserve your tolerance? Or disabled babies? Babies born out of wedlock? What babies aren't equal? Don’t let’s be immature, just stick to the point you’re trying to make.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: Where EVER did I say I was jealous of and or hated Hippies sharing from farm to farm? I support this idea, as well as building self sustaining communities away from the tentacles of big gov't. This has nothing do to with "Communism" other than the 6 letters "Communityism".
Where did I infer you hated/were jealous?
I used them as a model to explain the benefits of Communism. You've tried to skirt around the issue about 4 times in one post here. Just answer honestly and as fully as you can. Why ask me about planned parenthood or try to say I said you were jealous of hippy commune farms? I was raising simple, direct points and illustrating them as best I could. Not slighting you.
To get back on topic. It has everything to do with Communism.
It *is* communism for fuck's sake - you said it yourself - where do you think the word came from? It's a bastardisation of the word "commune" as in “commune-ism”:
quote:Wikipedia: …an intentional community of people living together, sharing common interests, property, possessions, resources, work, and income. In addition to the communal economy, consensus decision-making, non-hierarchical structures and ecological living have become important core principles
Same goes for the word, “community”.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
quote:You said you were a hugely giving country to those less fortunate. I proved otherwise. You don't deny it. Point made.
Proved nothing...Tsunami in Indonesia, Earthquake in Haiti ring a bell? Who are the 2 main nations to help? America and Nato Forces.
quote:You said it was a "rediculous" statement to make that one wouldn't need certain things one thinks they need within a Capitalist society - I assumed you meant technology. Perhaps you didn't. I still asked what couldn't you live without which wouldn't be provided by a Communist society? Still awaiting an answer…
Let's take the obvious... Competition results in superior products and services.If I worked for you building widgets that you sold for 20 dollars and I figured out how to build a better widget and could sell it for 15 dollars, I would probably sell more widgets. Consumers get better products at better prices and the standard of living increases. One obvious example of this is one you enjoy everytime you log into WU's to see feet pics. If the inventors of digital camera we never allowed to produce it then we'd still be sending $10 to those mystery women in the back of LEGSHOW magazine for a polaroid of their feet in the mail. Anything that is modern technology that you use was created due to this basic principle and I don't have the time to list everyone for you since you will counter-attack the question with some excuse later. Just use common sense.
quote: Teach me these terms I am so lacking. I guess doing an A-level in history/politics, studying the world wars, Communist Russia, America before, after and during the Wall Street Crash and the dawn of British politics makes me a complete retard, so enlighten me please.
And you changed your tack there, btw. All of a sudden it’s a wonderful country, not the land of broken promises you mentioned before. Interesting
Well, having the typical education from a liberally biased based education system is your first problem, but let's keep going. If you want to pick apart grammatical mistakes to make you feel better and give you the warm fuzzy feeling of winning an internet arguement go right ahead lol, I think readers know what I mean.
quote: Consumerism is just basically greed when you get down to it – on the part of those providing the product or service. It’s about overcharging to make a profit and cost-cutting. Not the concerns of the customer.
Consumerism is somewhat about greed yes, but more like when people get trampled at wal mart over a fucking TV set, but ok. Uhm, however..Consumerism can't be the companies providing the service or product at the same time as people buying it, it is ONLY the buyers or users of said product or service. Capitalism was built originally from savings, but through corporate greed and years of Higher abuse and gov't fail and intervention the system is unbalanced. If you took community-ism grassroots and merged it with true Capitalism with the correct group of govt' leaders {minus global new world order douche bags and the Federal Reserve} you could have a pretty well oiled machine.
quote: What? Non-white babies don't deserve your tolerance
Well since you went there..and made this into a race thing, I won't even answer this. Was going to at first but no..that was a foolish road to go down, are you really fucking serious?
quote: try to say I said you were jealous of hippy commune farms? I was raising simple, direct points and illustrating them as best I could. Not slighting you.
To get back on topic. It has everything to do with Communism.
It *is* communism for fuck's sake - you said it yourself - where do you think the word came from? It's a bastardisation of the word "commune" as in “commune-ism”:
Only at the grass root level would I EVER accept community-ism. And that is by pulling products and services together to help out the communities and farms. But the basics of communism discourage personal Liberty, Freedom, and the ownership of private land. These things are the Beauty {still thankfully} of the USA. What's mine is mine, yes you can borrow it..but i'd like it back. The USA will burn down to the ground before it will ever become even more than that communism wise. Look, I am not happy with alot of the gov't policies or bullshit wars for land and power...but neither would our Founding Fathers. This nation is corrupt, everyone knows that..but we still stand on early principles because for 200 years they actually worked and {most} were happy and lived great lives.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: Proved nothing...Tsunami in Indonesia, Earthquake in Haiti ring a bell? Who are the 2 main nations to help? America and Nato Forces.
Yes, while the world watches and judges. Funny that; never do it quietly, do you? You even had the gall to say to other nations, referring back to the fact that you had helped others in certain crises, now it was time we did the same for Katrina. Erm…am I wrong here, or is the American people giving aid their decision? It’s NOT freely giving if you expect the same in kind. It was totally a career politician’s move and fuck-all to do with humanity.
quote:Let's take the obvious...
Let’s.
quote:Competition results in superior products and services.If I worked for you building widgets that you sold for 20 dollars and I figured out how to build a better widget and could sell it for 15 dollars, I would probably sell more widgets.
Yep, you probably would (unless I was excellent at my marketing, like Microsoft/Bill Gates).
quote:Consumers get better products at better prices
Annnd this furthers my point. “Prices”. I.E. Capitalism. You’re looking at this from the wrong perspective. Until you flip the way of seeing it, we’re talking about apples and oranges here. What relevance have “prices” got within Communism?
quote:If the inventors of digital camera we never allowed to produce it
Under what circumstances would they not be allowed to produce a digital camera? Remember seeing those miniature Russian spy cameras on James Bond? They *were* real…so that point is just incorrect.
quote:Anything that is modern technology that you use was created due to this basic principle and I don't have the time to list everyone for you since you will counter-attack the question with some excuse later. Just use common sense.
Which question? – My own? O.O
I don’t think you get the point of a debate is to show the other person how their points are factually incorrect. The reason I have been able to “counter-attack” your points…is because there are huge flaws in them which allow me to. And, you’re right, it would be time-consuming to compile a list, so I will link you to something very short in list-form of – just one Communist state’s inventions, and you tell me if they didn’t invent a lot of technology we still use today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Russian_inventions
I’ll just tell you my favourite 5/6 out of the list, because I have a slight feeling you won’t read it:
The first satellite. Says it all really, but I’ll pick a few more.
Active protection system. One which Americans use on their Harriers to this day. Not bad.
The Airliner. Ooh that one hurts, I’ll bet.
Chemical Cracking. We’ve all learned about that one in science.
Fire-fighting foam. How many lives would that dirty commie invention have saved?
And I’ll just go with a random one, Human/Manned Spaceflight. Beat America to the punch there, somewhat…
Say Communism isn’t your idea of how to run a society, but don’t say they weren't at LEAST as, if not more technologically advanced than you.
Now, there are literally thousands of inventions of the Chinese – to name one, gunpowder – and Similarly Cuba (guerrilla warfare), but Russia were by far the most technologically advanced country pre-the iron curtain being pulled down (which of course I am in favour of, but that signified the end of Communism for them…now look at the country…run by mafias and alcohol-barons). Capitalism. Yay!
quote: Well, having the typical education from a liberally biased based education system is your first problem, but let's keep going. If you want to pick apart grammatical mistakes to make you feel better and give you the warm fuzzy feeling of winning an internet arguement go right ahead lol, I think readers know what I mean.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Firstly, you debase the merits of an "internet argument" against your opponent...in an internet argument you're involved in.
Secondly, I’m quite ashamed of the fact I am mentioning this, it seems really pompous and I assure you I am not that way – kind of proven by my leanings towards Communism, I suppose, but there’s something you said that was just incorrect there. I didn’t have a typical education. I was privately schooled with an underlyingly Christian school. I.E: anything but liberal.
Writing clearly and fluently is the way one communicates fully and effectively, I’m afraid, and remember I just corrected a potentially embarrassing repeat-mistake for you – your posts are pretty fluent generally, if a little heavy to read sometimes, and I find that more admirable than an internet slang writer – but notice I didn’t start any of the classic “you can’t even write properly, never mind…blah blah blah” so get over the fact that you made a mistake. I don’t care whether you did or didn’t. I can see now how you seem to hate correction.
And to fully put that into context, compare the size of us to the size of America. Something like 40 times bigger? Yet our education is considered higher than yours. You can’t really criticise an education system you’ve never experienced when the figures tells us literally the opposite is true and your system is, in fact the runner-up. It’s hypocrisy, mate.
We’ve got 2 in the top 5. I’m even talking England here, not Great Britain.
Anyway, I can’t believe you got me to talk about that, but yet again, to get back on topic from your side-stepping:
quote:Consumerism is somewhat about greed yes…Consumerism can't be the companies providing the service or product at the same time as people buying it, it is ONLY the buyers or users of said product or service.
This is just a thing you have to be very fragile as to how you talk about it because there’s a lot of grey area. What I was getting at is it is the greed of the companies and private owners who PROMOTE a culture of consumerism – my apologies, I was unclear on that point.
quote:Capitalism was built originally from savings, but through corporate greed and years of Higher abuse and gov't fail and intervention the system is unbalanced. If you took community-ism grassroots and merged it with true Capitalism with the correct group of govt' leaders {minus global new world order douche bags and the Federal Reserve} you could have a pretty well oiled machine.
I’ve noticed something. At least I think I have, perhaps there’s another reason for it: you can’t ever say Communism when you agree with the points. You’ve resorted to saying you’d agree with partial “community-ism “, which is just a made-up word for Communism. Do you mean you would agree with COMMUNISM and (true) Capitalism merging? You’d say that would be an ideal situation?
quote: What? Non-white babies don't deserve your tolerance
quote:Well since you went there..and made this into a race thing, I won't even answer this. Was going to at first but no..that was a foolish road to go down, are you really fucking serious?
Quote taken unbelievably out of context to suit your means – one is reminded of the John Lennon interview where he said, “We’re probably more influential than Jesus Christ at the minute…” queue the bible belt being told The Beatles said they’re better than Jesus and mass record burnings etc.
I mentioned disabled and illegitimate children too. I simply don’t understand how any child is “less equal” than any other. It’s a sick thing to say. Tell me. Which children, who have done nothing on this Earth other than be brought into it, are less deserving? Which child would you point at in one of those hospital nurseries and say “That one is not as good/deserving/equal as the other ones”?
quote:Only at the grass root level would I EVER accept community-ism. And that is by pulling products and services together to help out the communities and farms.
I’d say the pulling together part is a good idea, yes. Your talking about the “grass roots” bit is getting a little confusing. The choices are: COMMUNISM or a hybrid or not COMMUNISM. There’s no “grass roots” to it you either follow it or you don’t – you share within a community for the benefit of everyone, or you don’t and you get ahead individually.
quote: But the basics of communism discourage personal Liberty, Freedom, and the ownership of private land.
No, no and yes. Isn’t it horrible that people that can’t afford land under a Capitalist system are given it for helping the country!? God that makes me sick. Instead of living homeless where they belong or in government-owned housing which might as well have been shat out, they get this land so that they can cultivate and grow food for us!? Scumbags.
What basics? What discouragement? Take it out of your head that to be a Communist society, you have to have a “Big Brother-esque” dictator like Franco or Stalin. To be true Communist, you’d have to NOT have a leader. Maybe someone to organise, but that’s their job and is only given a higher stature than anyone else’s within the society from yours or my eyes, because we are looking at it from a CAPITALIST PERSPECTIVE. The context within which it is set, there is no hierarchy and therefore no one more important.
And what do you need your land for btw? I mean you, specifically and your land. What value other than in Capitalist terms does it have?
quote:These things are the Beauty {still thankfully} of the USA. What's mine is mine, yes you can borrow it..but i'd like it back. The USA will burn down to the ground before it will ever become even more than that communism wise.
This was what I originally asked about and it’s just developed. That is very violent language – almost Dantesque (the poet, Dante – wrote an epic poem concerning “Judgement Day”) about saying the streets will be ablaze before Communism is ever accepted. Why are you so full of actual genuine hatred towards a group of people you’ve probably never met and a philosophy you have never experienced that you would never stop fighting it and would rather the country be decimated than accept a new idea?
Which, I really hate to break it to you, but you said that would be the only way?...that’s kind of how it crops up…Capitalism fucks up a country so much there is a revolution and Communism is the new order.
quote: Look, I am not happy with alot of the gov't policies or bullshit wars for land and power...but neither would our Founding Fathers. This nation is corrupt, everyone knows that..but we still stand on early principles because for 200 years they actually worked and {most} were happy and lived great lives.
Read what you JUST wrote. “They worked 200 years ago”. Shit happens and stuff changes is as poignantly as I can put it. Feudalism worked 1,500 years ago…why did that change? Revolts, peasant uprising etc. etc. People need change when they need change. For example our caveman instinct of finding food and a cave to live in has changed to getting a job so you can buy food and a house.
The ball is always rolling…it’s just ignorant to think what worked in the past will work in the future.
[ December 11, 2010, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Andy-Laa ]
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
1} Giving AID was voluntary, there were donation stations at random locations and we gave freely without alot of pomp and circumstance. Even after Katrina, there was a shit load of money raised. If you don't live here, no need to tell me "how it was".
2}Prices-Everything costs something because the time, skill and knowledge it took to create it. This is obvious, and lower prices are always better. No need to go further into your flawed logic.
3}Freedom in market,society, and tech advancements in Capitalistic societies led the way for these types of advancements..not countries like Russia or China. What is so great that comes from Russia or China?--wal mart? lol!
4} Again, political leaning or social leaning has nothing to do with invention {everyone has a brain still to create}..those "inventions" you mentioned were prototype or Beta stage and it was nations like Japan and the USA who brought those thing into mainstream for everyone to benefit from...otherwise they'd still be sitting in Gorby's airplane hangar in Moscow.
5}Good for you on your education, still doesn't equal real world experience plus you may even have a huge debt to pay off yet...sucks...wouldn't want it.
6}Greed of companies and such who promote Consumerism, we agree finally.
7}Still not communism in the word sense, the only thing I would back would be the trading and community help within the community but not the sharing of property to point of non ownership for the individual...since this...a new word had to be made {pats myself on back and beats fists on chest} because it's not communism anymore in the world I would envision.
8}Never said LESS deserving...i said Equal. The ones born with major physical problems that will prevent them from ever living a normal life, why this happens I don't have an answer..but these children won't ever have the same opportunities. You are the one asking the baited, loaded questions and not using common sense on what I could mean..but then again English think differently than us here..good reason for the pilgrims to get the hell out of there lol.
9}It's my freakin land and I can do whatever I want with it if I worked for all my life or was past down to me. OK, but seriously...that's like asking someone "What do you need a bed for, when you can share mine...or what do you need a car for and what would YOU use it for" lol You are missing the point of United States, but I don't expect a Euro-Commie to understand, it's ok.
10} Dont worry, the US won't ever become a communist country {in any sense} anytime soon. moot point. It's not the people anyone "hates" it's their fucked up ideas is all. And trust me, the road to revolution would be reality if this society was ever pushed too far..but only to crop up a facsist dictatorship afterwards, just like pre WW2 Germany since a leader figurehead or some time of oligarchy ALWAYS pops up to control a country after revolution according to history.
11}The principles worked and still work from 200 years ago as per the declaration of independance, supposing the current gov't actually stood by the founding documents..it's only when people {sheeple} thought they needed a change did it start to decay..proof.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 1} Giving AID was voluntary, there were donation stations at random locations and we gave freely without alot of pomp and circumstance. Even after Katrina, there was a shit load of money raised. If you don't live here, no need to tell me "how it was".
I was living in one of the countries America had the audacity to ask for help on something it could have easily sorted out itself and how long has it been? like 5 years? 7? maybe more? still not sorted. Communist society = sorted shortly thereafter through the community spirit you’re in favour of.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 2}Prices-Everything costs something because the time, skill and knowledge it took to create it. This is obvious, and lower prices are always better. No need to go further into your flawed logic.
You cannot grasp that time is money only in Capitalist terms can you? True Communism doesn't USE money. There's no such thing as "cheaper to make" in Communism.
Tell me you don't believe that or even just don't understand. Just outright say it instead of hoping it will go away. It's the third time I've mentioned it and you've given a completely irrelevant view on it. Do you understand that even to argue against my points, you have to attack it from the perspective within which I speak?
This is the best analogy I can give for what you’re doing: you’re watching Laurel and Hardy painting the inside of a house with a paintbrush. The paint can is on the other side of the room so they keep going back and forth, inadvertently leaving a line of paint on the floor of this posh house they’re working in.
You are saying “Why don’t they move the bucket closer to the wall!?” You apply real life logic to this slapstick comedy.
It’s not a great analogy, admittedly, but that’s the level of complete pig-ignorance (as in intentional ignorance to get your point across as strong as possible when it simply doesn’t apply to the situation) you are displaying.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 3}Freedom in market,society, and tech advancements in Capitalistic societies led the way for these types of advancements..not countries like Russia or China. What is so great that comes from Russia or China?--wal mart? lol!
4} Again, political leaning or social leaning has nothing to do with invention {everyone has a brain still to create}..those "inventions" you mentioned were prototype or Beta stage and it was nations like Japan and the USA who brought those thing into mainstream for everyone to benefit from...otherwise they'd still be sitting in Gorby's airplane hangar in Moscow.
Yes. some half a decade on, and we have improved versions of half-antiquated inventions. Relevance? I mean bear in mind the fact that it was a completely new and revolutionary idea. They couldn’t have done better, not only because the needs of the people weren’t sophisticated enough (think of 10 years ago, who the fuck would have asked for a spreadsheet to be made on their mobile phone? Yet now, they are a standard of smart phones), but also what else could they have done? You need the first generation to make the second and so on.
Saying they’re “Beta” products is asinine as…they were the *only* thing of their kind invented. Otherwise why don’t we as “Superior” Capitalists have some form of spaceship-airbus to take us on tours of the moon already? The Space race has been over for 30 years and we are still happy with what you would call a “beta” product that we went to the moon with in the 70’s? – please answer that one. I’d imagine you can’t which would illustrate my point.
Laying in the groundwork *is* the work. To come up with a completely new idea off the bat and design it is immeasurably more impressive than to improve an existing idea.
Easy example being the iPhone 4 has just come out. Without the first, there wouldn't be a fourth, do you get that?
Also, 3 of the 6 that I mentioned are still used today in their original form. They can't be bettered. there's loads more on the link. That point is just false.
Ha, well you asked for this one, I suppose: What was so great that came out of China?
Ohh...I don't know. Numeracy, gunpowder, paper, printing, book-binding, engineering, (one of your favourites coming up, here) PAPER MONEY, cannons, land/sea mines, rockets, rudders for ships (and therefore naval navigation), cultivation equipment (such as hoes, spades, knives etc), domestication of animals for food, plows, the compass, the coffin, forks, the drum, rowing oars, use of salt (as preservative and for flavour), silk, archaeology, automatic doors (as early as 600 C.E), high alcohol beer (not the shit the Egyptians got), the toothbrush, the calendar year and treatment of diabetes/vitamin deficiencies is where I'll stop. Not even a twentieth of the way through everything they have ever invented.
You really have no clue how ignorant a statement like that can make you sound, you know.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 5}Good for you on your education, still doesn't equal real world experience plus you may even have a huge debt to pay off yet...sucks...wouldn't want it.
No, no debt? I'm fortunate enough that my mum was a solicitor, now a judge. My dad owned a tiling shop. And both grew out of heavily working class backgrounds in the 50’s, so don't assume just because I can see merit in equality that I am a bitter working classmen.
If I did have debt, that's a point to poke fun? Wow. You're such a pleasant human being, you know that?
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 6}Greed of companies and such who promote Consumerism, we agree finally.
But you don't acknowledge the very simple point that one can exploit the Capitalist society to reach these conclusions, whereas Communistically speaking, it would be impossible.
Agree or disagree?(whether you believe it can be moderated/stopped/deterred or not, it’s a one-word answer I’m looking for here – it is impossible to have greedy companies promoting consumerism in a Communist society, whereas it is a real likelihood in Capitalist terms. Yes or no. Agree or disagree).
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 7}Still not communism in the word sense, the only thing I would back would be the trading and community help within the community but not the sharing of property to point of non ownership for the individual...
You described living in a communal area of land, with no government interaction, just trade and sharing of resources amongst farmers I think it was… but they individually, officially own the equipment/land? Did I misinterpret that one? Could you provide me with reasoning as to why the farmers are completely sharing the equipment, yet they all *need* so desperately to own their own certain bits of it?
If it’s communally shared, why would it matter who’s shed it ends up in at the end of a working day? Or if it’s land, who’s back garden it is, because everyone gets an equal amount anyway in exchange for what others have produced.
I reckon you just don’t want to admit that the philosophy of it is great. That you believe in it, so you put your own little twist at the end by saying “share…but give back!” where there is literally no motivation for it other than hoarding a.k.a greed. It wouldn’t be outrageous to assume that since your business relies on consumerism – I’m sure it does very well - that you would never opt for being one rung down on the ladder for the benefit of the country, possibly world.
quote: {pats myself on back and beats fists on chest}
How…fitting.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 8}Never said LESS deserving...i said Equal. The ones born with major physical problems that will prevent them from ever living a normal life, why this happens I don't have an answer..but these children won't ever have the same opportunities. You are the one asking the baited, loaded questions and not using common sense on what I could mean..
Well I apologise for possibly offending you about the race thing, it was just very in-keeping with what you said. Hitler would have said something similar, you know? But I get that’s not what you were saying now you’ve explained it.
It was not the absence of common sense that was the problem, you were unclear with what you said and refused to tell me what you meant furthering my suspicion.
-THIS is what can happen if you don’t apply the same logical context to a statement as you did before referring to Capitalist problems when talking about Communist societies.
With Communism, this disabled child will be provided for by the community. It’s not all that hard to feed one more person out of a town of say a few thousand, is it? Whereas it’s a significant chunk of money that is taken out of the welfare systems for them as a whole – obviously not their fault, but it’s just a fact.
quote:but then again English think differently than us here..good reason for the pilgrims to get the hell out of there lol.
Very mature, moving on…
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 9}It's my freakin land and I can do whatever I want with it if I worked for all my life or was past down to me.
I don’t understand the difference if you still live, take care of and are guaranteed the land for the rest of your life. It is yours in name only. If you want to move, you can basically do a swap with someone else who wants to. Why is one piece of paper with your name on it so important to you?
Is it a pride thing?
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: OK, but seriously...that's like asking someone "What do you need a bed for, when you can share mine...or what do you need a car for and what would YOU use it for" lol
No…no it’s not :/
You live on, have rights to and work on your land...it's just you don't have a deed to it. It's not like people will just come into your house and use your toilet. The two comparisons are not applicable to the same situation.
I mean I’ve never read the full communist manifesto, but I know everyone was entitled to a bed and accommodation amongst other things. Both of which they got. How many millions are homeless is there in the U.S at the moment again?
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: You are missing the point of United States, but I don't expect a Euro-Commie to understand, it's ok.
Strike 1: England’s not Europe, Strike 2: nor does it have the Euro currency, Strike 3: There’s nothing except an out-dated piece of paper dating back to the days of revolution stating you have the right to “bear arms” that is different from the U.S or any other democratic nation. (but that is a completely different matter that has no relevance in this debate. Yet again). Again, your mental age shines through in moments like that, lessening your argument.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 10} Dont worry, the US won't ever become a communist country {in any sense} anytime soon.
I’ll try not to worry. Very interesting indefinite time-scale you put there: “anytime soon”. And I don’t know what you mean by “in any sense” because as GQ-guy put it…it’s been a slow lean towards it for a long time now. Developing more and more Communist-esque policies and views. It already is in some senses.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: moot point. It's not the people anyone "hates" it's their fucked up ideas is all.
Again, calling equality a fucked up idea. What is it you think of when you think of a Communist or a Communist country? What specific images come to mind? And I don’t see what you are calling a moot point… That people stage revolutions or that Americans hate Communists?
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: And trust me, the road to revolution would be reality if this society was ever pushed too far..but only to crop up a facsist dictatorship afterwards, just like pre WW2 Germany since a leader figurehead or some time of oligarchy ALWAYS pops up to control a country after revolution according to history.
Oh yeah, there’s no denying it’s easy to exploit as a dictator, but…I’ll say it for the second time, in true Communism, there are no dictators or leaders or hierarchy.
I mean I don’t know if you’d know this, but Lenin wasn’t a bad guy, the people he had to use to get the revolution rolling were, but he was a purist with regards to the establishment of Communism.
It’s a long, winding story, so I won’t go into it, but it just ends with a man who saw how he could exploit what his fellow men were trying to establish.
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: 11}The principles worked and still work from 200 years ago as per the declaration of independance, supposing the current gov't actually stood by the founding documents..it's only when people {sheeple} thought they needed a change did it start to decay..proof.
You call people who want change “sheep”? Wouldn’t the sheep be the ones that wanted change but didn’t want to ruffle any feathers, so to speak? People actively campaigning for change are anything but sheep – I think you got your sentences crossed there.
And no. Don’t change your argument yet again.
You claimed that the principals of the past would work today. You “supported” that by saying “they worked 200 years ago, so why not now?”
Either admit you were wrong about that and moved onto a slightly different view so as not to be proven wrong or accept that that’s your view with no supporting evidence. Otherwise you just changed what you said to try to get one over on me because I believe differently from you and have backed my case more strongly than you have yours.
Or worm out of it on some loophole. That way works too.
Also, just relating to the last word...what has been proven in your mind?
[ December 11, 2010, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Andy-Laa ]
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
I'm actually not even going to read your blabberings anymore, because clearly you:
A}Aren't American, and I shouldn't expect you to understand ANY of our principles..unless you lived in the states for at least 3-5 years min., then if you still like your communism, then it would be beneficial for you to take the next flight back home.
B}Change my answers around to suit your questions in a way where I become the Strawman and everything about America is so terrible.
C}Clearly are just looking for an arguement, your type are in every nook and cranny all over the internet because you feel safe and tough behind a keyboard..understandable though.
Your opinions about Communism are your own, and it's obvious by the overwhelming replies from people here..that you are in a small minority with it, but you are free to discuss them {another benefit of a Free, Capitalist society BTW}.
If your goal is to assume the US will become communist EVER, you are wrong. Some coastal large urban areas after a complete meltdown may resort to basic communism, but as long as the power structure remains and those who run it remain in power...we'll not see true Capitalism OR Communism or Socialism or whatever.
Again, these are merely your personal opinion..dually noted, thanks for your time but your claims are too far out there for me to even rationally speak with you anymore. So I bid you adieu and don't forget to buy a few memberships to my site {as part of a community thing for your foot brothers in communism, if you believe in spreading the wealth} Cheers there Good Watson..
OH and BTW: YOU spelled Da Vinci wrong...no "H" lmao..
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
One last thing here:
Communism might work in theory, but fails in practice due to basic human nature. Various types of communes have been tried even before Karl Marx's definitive work on the subject. Many Utopian societies were started in the mid-west and western US in the 1800s, only to fail due to the same reasons. More recently the kibbutzim in Israel,China, Russia and the hippie communes of the '60s and '70s.All have failed or are failing and not producing.
The only way communism can work is with a tremendous dedication of everyone to the betterment of the whole. This takes a huge amount of dedication and discipline which most people lack. Virtually everyone wants to own some things of their own and wish to profit from their own labor. This is the basic human nature that communism fails to take into account. While it is possible for it to work, usually over the long run such communes fail, either in the small scale or large scale. Because of the founding principles of America and our culture {like it or not} it's impossible for Communism to ever be implemented here...but then again, modern liberal schooling is breeding a generation of kids who may end up losing the American Spirit, but I doubt it. Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: I'm actually not even going to read your blabberings anymore, because...
...you have no decent, mature, relevant, tolerant responses left.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
Read underneath that...that was just jolt you out of your stupor.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
I did?
You've ended the debate and are a very close-minded person with regards to the fact that America might just not be the Valhalla you claim it to be and Communism isn't an infringement of anyone's rights.
So it's done.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
Minus some bum presidents and policies over the past 25 years ups and downs...it's still the Best f*&king place on earth son. lol
Posted by Fate111 (Member # 2627) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andy-Laa: What the fuck is with the xenophobic nature of Americans towards communists ffs!?
It even worked reasonably well in Russia - obviously putting aside the dictatorship - then when we forced parliament or the dumas or w/e they call them now they're in poverty and wishing Lenin was alive.
What is it about Communists that Americans have an unfaltering hatred towards when it doesn't even affect them?
Ummmmmm,... Americans, at least the ones that know true history, know that Communism does not work! To say it "worked reasonably well in Russia - obviously putting aside the dictatorship" is like saying, "Ted Bundy was a really nice guy - obviously putting aside the whole serial killer thing he had going on". To be accurate, Communism "worked", as you say, in the United Soviet Socialist Republic (U.S.S.R.). The last time I checked, that country no longer exists on a map because its form of government collapsed!
Basically, it all boils down to this question - Can man rule himself? Personally, I believe we all have a choice and man can rule himself if he continues to strive to live to the highest form of himself. Those who find Communism appealing - progressives in this country (the U.S.) who, somehow, think "big government" is the answer to everyone's problems - don't think this way. They believe that people don't know what's good for themselves and that people constantly need someone to "look over people's shoulder" and dictate what is best for them, all under the guise that it's for "the common/greater good".
Sorry, but I believe that people should be given opportunity; that opportunity gives people the option to either succeed or fail, rather than being told what's "best" for them. Let me decide for myself what I want to do with my life, where I want to go and the transportation method used to get there, what I want to eat, what I want for my health care plan, etc., not some government who thinks that they know what's "best" for me!
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fate111: some government who thinks that they know what's "best" for me!
Like say just as an example...the current government?
Who tells you you have to be taxed, how you can't do some things in private such as smoke cannabis should you choose or how you aren't allowed to have certain professions or how when your parents die, 40% (in England) of their estate must go directly to the government, who forces religion down your kids throats in schools from an early age - in science class, sickeningly enough - and I could go on...
Whereas communism LETS you decide on all those things (taxation obviously exempt as it would be irrelevant) - there can still be laws which all may not agree on, so long as they are moral, what's the problem? The fact that it has been a means of succession to power for some in the past doesn't mean that's what the philosophy is about. True Communism has yet to happen. So we have no stick with which to measure it by.
I'll just lastly point out that the question I posed was that I don't get the hatred towards the PEOPLE - the individuals - of a Communist society that is so rife in America (and other parts of the world, but mainly it seems to be America - Cold War issues or whatever).
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
Because we love our Freedom so much anything else is second rate and to infringe upon it would warrant death Posted by ozkar (Member # 13264) on :
Three pages and counting of dramatic irony, subcategory, tragic.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: Because we love our Freedom so much anything else is second rate and to infringe upon it would warrant death
Quote me something from the manifesto where it states that people aren't allowed freedom plz.
Posted by Wrinklesguy (Member # 732) on :
The whole premise is not equal to 100% freedom...if everyone is working "for the greater good of the whole" IE:Borg Collective, then individual freedoms to be free completely are restricted. You are only allowed as much "freedom" as the comrade allows you.
Posted by Andy-Laa (Member # 31511) on :
We obviously disagree about the fundamental point...so that's that.
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