posted
Some background on me: I am agnostic. There, now that that's out of the way...
A friend of mine at work invited me to join her for lunch today, her treat, so, as I am never one to say no to free food, I did.
She offered to drive. As soon as I got in the car, buckled up, and found myself traveling along the interstate, she came after me with the "So, why don't you believe in God?" thing.
It was at that point I realized that there is indeed no such thing as a free lunch. After determining that we were driving at too high of a speed for me to jump out of the car without risking injury, I very politely told her that I respected her beliefs, and I would never try to change them, and all I ask is the same respect in return, and that's when she started coming after me even harder.
So on it went.
"Well, if the world came down with an epidemic, and you had the cure, wouldn't you share it?"
So you mean because I don't believe what you belive, I'm sick? I'm a disease that needs to be cured?
"Well, it's a matter of life and death."
News flash. We all die eventually.
"But we won't all share eternal life. When the rapture comes, those who haven't accepted JC as they're personal savior will not blah blah blah"
And on and on. And the more respectful I was, the more and more she came after me. Telling me she is going to bring in a book written by an ex-athiest and give it to me to read. I told her I wasn't interested. And she didn't take that as an answer.
She's a sweet girl, I like her, but back off already. How disrespectful can you be? When a person tells you that they have different beliefs, you accept it, respect it, and move on to a new topic of conversation. Unless you are a Christian apparently.
That's the thing about Christians that pisses me off, it's the damn righteousness. They are so damn sure that they are the only ones who have it right. All other religions and beliefs (many of which pre-date Christianity) are wrong. All those billions of people who believe in Buddah, and Muhammed, and the easter bunny are all going to burn, because they don't accept JC as the balls. She wasn't being disrespectful to me. Oh no, to not try and save me would have been the real disrespect..
And don't even get me started on those damn dirty Jews who don't believe Jesus was the son of God! Why surely, come the Rapture, they will be shown the error of thier ways.
Puh-leeze.
I think the thing that pissed me off the most, was the whole notion that I am somehow sick and in need of a cure because I don't share her beliefs.
I mean, the unmitigated gall to believe that not only is your way the only way, but that anyone who does not follow your way needs to be converted over post haste, and that we will not call it a conversion, because saying that what we are really doing is "saving" them sounds more righteous, and makes us feel oh so good about ourselves.
The Oxford English dictionary defines the word Cult as follows:
• noun 1. a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2. a religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3. something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society
posted
She means well Bro...she's just going about it in the wrong ways.
I'm a Christian myself, but at the same time I realize a few things:
1. You can't "pitch" Jesus like selling a used car to have somebody go on to believe in Him. Such a belief is very personal and if a person should start believing, they'd have to feel right with it on some very deep levels and have to come to grips with it in their on time first. Getting pushy with Christianity, or anything else in the world for that matter, usually just serves to push people away rather than draw them closer...
2. Not everybody is going to believe, and Jesus knows this. I don't want to get all Biblical and "preachy" here (please excuse me if I unintentionally come off that way), but when Jesus sent His followers into cities to witness, to paraphrase, if a city flat-out rejected them, they were told to "wipe the dust from their feet" and leave town with a warning. By warning that's not to say using scare tactics or getting all self-righteous, but it'd be the equivalent of, say, telling somebody that if they sleep on railroad tracks they risk getting hit by a train. And by leaving the city, it's clear to me that Jesus didn't want them hanging around fighting about it, going in endless circles with arguements, because again, if a person is to accept the beliefs, they'd have to come to terms with it on their own. Beating anything over somebody's head always does more harm than good.
3. Overzealous Christians (especially the new converts) can black-eye the faith faster than any nay-sayer can ever dream, so it's important to watch how we go about witnessing. Like I said, I'm a Christian myself, but there's been these types at jobs and things that I've avoided! Again, basically they mean well, but they're going about showing it all wrong. I personally tend to think of this as a matter of "I'm here if you have a question about it." rather than "You just GOTTA believe this man!"
Some of my best friends are (and in some case "were") atheists, and they don't have a problem accepting me as a friend because I don't get pushy with my beliefs. Likewise I don't have a problem with them because they don't get mean about what they do or do not believe...in other words it's all about respect, and just a little bit of respect can go a very long way with a whole lot of people.
So in this case Bro, I'd say you're good in doing what you're doing...you just respect her right to believe what she wants, and let her know in a polite way that you don't share her beliefs. Whatever you do, please don't jerk your knee to this girl and think we're all like her.
-------------------- Like Girls? LikeReal Barefoot Girls?! Then this place is for you! www.dennis-n-mara.com Your best source for some Real Deal Hardcore Barefoot Girls! Posts: 5427 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I completely agree with everything Lou said.
quote:Originally posted by Lou Gojira: Whatever you do, please don't jerk your knee to this girl and think we're all like her.
Exactly! We're not all like that by any means.
-------------------- When you go home tell them of us and say, for your tomorrow we gave our today. -John Maxwell Edmonds Posts: 1543 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
A little holier than thou syndrome. I'm agnostic as well, but I'm sure your friend means well as impolite as she is being. It sounds like she is pushing it on you because she was told in Sunday school that she needs to save sinners and now she's going through a scripted spiel to convert you like so many Jehova's Witnesses that pass out Watchtower literature door to door.
Here's a little interesting rant for you guys...
My wife was raised a fundamentalist Baptist and had to do that same type of thing when she was growing up in a very crazy household with my insane mother-in-law. Their entire lives revolved around fire and brimstone, the rapture, the evil of all mankind, etc. She actually was sent off to a seminary school which she managed to duck out of after a year after high school graduation. All it was basically for was to prepare young women to become good subservient housewives to their preacher husbands. She moved back home where she and her sister were basically kept brainwashed and docile and pretty much apart from the real world. She told me the story of how her parents decided the television was evil and that they took it out into the woods and used it for target practice with rifles. The only books they were allowed to read were also basically those that were purchased at exclusively Christian Bookstores. When I finally met her and her sister we were all working together at the same place when we were all in our early 20s. Her parents put them to work in the "real world" to basically support them, and wouldn't let them associate with anyone outside of their household or whatever church they were going to at the time. For some reason I was really attracted to the timid girl with all the baggage that came with her, and we got together after she was disowned by her parents and kicked out of the house.
This is not the typically loving Christian family, but it was an extreme case that I am living with first hand!
quote:Originally posted by LeDaemon: This is not the typically loving Christian family, but it was an extreme case that I am living with first hand!
Thanks Bro for drawing a line of distinction between the extremists and other Christians.
And back atcha' Brother Wing-Washer.
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posted
Lou you are a rarity my friend, like my mom who is also a Christian w/ similar beliefs. i hope you odnt get offended by this, i mean no offense.
I would say unfortunately that many religions which rely on cold hard facts (or people who need them to rely on such) or diety worship, simply need a way for the system to encapsulate all of their existence which means to justify everything in their experience. if your whold security of being relies on that God created all people and the earth and that He passed down a system for people to behave, to have people being like, " well, thats cool but i dont buy it", and not to think that they fall into the system in some way doesnt alleiviate the fear that many people rely on such beliefs for.
The very thought of this woman thinking about the fact that you dont believe in God (which isnt agnostic just 'undecided in a way, anyway??) and letting it bother her proves that this woman in no way at all truly believes what shes is preaching to you. she needs everyone else's agreement to confirm her beliefs, (or really to soothe her fears,), so you are stuck. people are in general incredibly uncomfortable understandibly with teh fact that they have no hard and fast evidence of why they are here, what they are (supposed) to be doing here, or God forbid, that they have no real purpose here, and even what they are,, where they came from, where they are going, etc. people's minds can do some of the most amazing things, create the most beautiful and horrible things, and calculate and categorize, rationalize and fit everything into a million concepts and systems, but they cant answer some very basic questions. i really believe that if people dig really deep this is the root of all of their troubles, or def. the cause of their deepest confusion. anyway, i dont think im teliing you stuff you odnt know or think about i could just go on forever with it.... if you keep talking to this girl maybe you could convey to her that for whatever reasons her explanations about life and existence you just dont buy, and you can ask her why she has such an aversion to your beliefs differeing from her's. i have no doubt (in my mind at least) that fear is mostly at the root of people who aggressively and annoyingly pursue people to convert them to their own belief systems, i know we all want to believe that they really want to help people but i am afraid that is kind of an explanation or rationalization that works in their favor, folks like Lou are most likely having your best interests at heart, they are not trying to 'help' people who seem to be fine and not have any problems. However people who are very secure in their beliefs offer them as guidance when a person COMES to them for help or is obviously miserable and in need. anyway, sorry for the rant.
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posted
ill tell you a little background on me so theres no confusion about biases: i was raised in a Christian church my whole life but have never been able to consider myself a Christian, (always a simple case of , 'i just dont buy it'), to the credit of Lou, this is probably more common in kids who were sort of expected to believe certain things growing up or 'beaten over the head' with other people's beliefs. nevertheless i got to a point around 20 where i was in deep need of investigation of my existence, i studied soem Bible, and found very interesting things in the Gnostic gospels, gospels left out of the Bible portraying JC as much more human, and as having a relationship with MaryMagdelene(but these things cheapen what they really convey, which is ideas that the Kingdom of Heaven and Son of Man and terms like that have to do with a state of being or conciousness) , anyway i studied Hinduism bla bla bla most all the major religions finding the similar themes, then studied a whole lot of Buddhism, (as having nothign to do with different types or sects, just Buddhism), which led me to Zen Buddhism which i have drawn a lot from and continue to study (by the way it is better to think of Buddhism and Zen Buddhism as practices rather than religions, they never wanted to be organized religions), and finally i got a little into quantum physics and its parallels with Buddhism and in turn the parallels of Buddhism, quantum physics, Christianity and the works. whatever, im not some sort of intellectual, im not a snob, i just had to deal with very deep rooted fears, and there are a lot of interesting things out there as anyone can tell you.
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posted
I appreciate your input guys. And it's important to me that you know that I am not a judgemental person. I totally believe in live and let live, and I always respect other peoples beliefs, even when they don't jibe with mine, or even when I find them comical in some way.
The following is a blog I posted on my myspace page several months ago. Before this girl asked me to lunch. This is in fact where she found out about my agnosticism. And yes Guitar Drew, I do tend to lean more towards atheism these days, but am not yet prepared to fully commit to that idea. Anyway, here's the blog:
"What DO you believe in?"
When people find out that I am agnostic, the question I am most often asked is this: What DO you believe? with the emphasis being on the word "do".
I usually respond with: "I believe in your right to believe whatever you choose without passing judgment on you for that belief." Usually I just leave it at that. But some people (Christians mostly), cant let it go that easily. So I will then use another of my trademark statements: "I was raised Catholic...but I'm in recovery now." If at this point they still wont stop insisting, then I usually start screaming "FIRE!" at the top of my lungs hoping to cause a mass panic that I can use as camouflage and thereby exact my escape.
I have decided to give the question a proper response here in this forum. I do not want to start some ongoing debate, nor do I want to respond to dozens of emails defending my stance. This is me. This is how I see things. Now do me the favor that I do you, and accept my beliefs and do not pass judgment on me because they do not fit into yours.
So, here we go:
What I Believe.
I believe in evolution. That we are descended from apes, as the scientific proof shows us quite clearly.
I believe in peace and love, and that we should all aspire to be better people.
I believe in a womans right to choose.
I believe that the Bible is largely a work of fiction, but that it is peppered with historical events which lend it a slight air of authenticity.
I believe that the Bible is mostly a series of morality plays, several of which I feel are good lessons to live life by.
I believe in everyones right to worship whoever or however they see fit.
I believe in UFOs and Bigfoot. One because I have seen one with my own eyes, and the other because I really want to.
I believe that the fire and brimstone that rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah was either a volcanic eruption or a meteor shower, and that the people of that time simply did not have the science to explain it, so they attributed it to the all powerful being in the sky to help them understand.
I believe without a doubt that there was a conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy.
I believe that gays and lesbians should be able to get married, and adopt and raise children if they wish to do so.
I believe that 3 dollars a gallon is way too fucking much to pay for gas.
I believe the guy in the white house is making us all look bad.
I believe in ghosts because I grew up in a haunted house and have seen way too many of them to deny it.
I believe that there was a man named Jesus, and that he preached a groovy message of love and peace, and that we killed him for it.
I don't believe that he was the son of God, although I believe he claimed to be. But I mean really, he probably wasnt the first, and he certainly wasnt the last (David Koresh anyone?). And here's a thought to keep the faithful up at night: What if David Koresh actually WAS the second coming of Christ, and we killed him again? Thats some serious bad karma there people.
Speaking of which, I believe in karma.
And lastly, I believe the children are our future...wait a sec...I need to stop before i make myself sick.
Once again I will remind the ultra sensitive of you out there, that I respect and honor your beliefs. I simply request that you NEVER try to force them on me, and that you respect me enough to understand that you are never going to change my mind.
quote:I respect and honor your beliefs. I simply request that you NEVER try to force them on me, and that you respect me enough to understand that you are never going to change my mind.
Amen to that! (pun intended I suppose )
I completely agree with you Bro...we can't CHANGE the minds of others and everybody, and I do mean everybody, on both sides of the theological fence, needs to wake up and understand this. As a Christian, it's an embarassment to me when loud-mouthed Christians get obnoxious and pushy...and, as a Christian, it angers me to get my beliefs slandered by self-thought know-it-all's.
If people are wanting to potentially win others over to their ways of thinking, they need to realize first and foremost that they can ALWAYS draw more flies with honey than they can with vinegar.
There are all kinds of subdivisions in the grand scheme of theology, but for the sake of brevity you can basically narrow it all down to two...belief or non-belief.
Speaking purely from my own personal experiences, I've found that a really great majority of non-believers are basically well-meaning, genuinely good people who tend to live and let live. Unfortunately, I've encountered (that is, usually found them on the 'net) a very small, intolerant, and hateful minority of non-believers that seem to dedicate the majority of their time attempting to tear down those of us who have faith. If anything, these kinds of people only make me stick to my faith even stronger than before.
Likewise, a lot of believers need to see this and apply it to themselves. For instance, Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church (not that I'd consider them "Christian" by any means) need to see that they're DRIVING non-believers further into atheism, and making Christians as a whole look bad, especially to somebody who already has doubts about us.
I've seen a lot of atheistic equivalents of Fred Phelps (again, usually on the 'net, I guess because it's easier to act like an intolerant badass when you can hide safely behind a screen), but I'm truly thankful that I've come to meet WAY more and become friends with non-believers that don't fall into this category.
In other words, this door swings both ways...and to get respect you have to GIVE respect.
Sorry for preaching, but this is a pretty hot-button kinda' issue for me, especially here lately. Your timing in starting this topic couldn't have been more uncanny IAmSpartachris.
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quote:Originally posted by IAmSpartachris: As for my timing...well purely coincidental. In fact, I don't even know what you are referring to.
*meh* Nothing worth going into detail about...I just got a very sad and sickening taste of an all-new low for humanity very recently. It's along the lines of this subject, but like I say, nothing to get into discussing too deeply. I'll just get fired up all over again.
Sorry to be so evasive...but, you know how peaceful this place is, I don't want to rile anything up with anybody...hope you understand.
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posted
I understand perfectly Lou, and respect your wishes not to discuss it. At any rate, thanks for the open mind, and the intelligent conversation.
Posts: 712 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Any time Bro, and thank you too for the intellectually stimulating convo.
I'm cool to discuss theology pretty much any where and everywhere...it's just a shame that a whole lot of the time, folks tend to want to get nasty about it (online at least).
That's one thing I'll never do...I won't argue religion (or politics for that matter). I'll discuss it, I'll be happy to debate it to a good degree, but as soon as the insults start flying I jet out. Of course I wasn't this way ten or so years ago...if I thought somebody was insulting my Lord I would've fought tooth and nail over it. But I've realized over time that there are ALWAYS going to be detractors over ANYTHING, and if somebody gets their jollies from trash-talking a deity that supposedly doesn't exist anyway, well, I say let the baby have their bottle. More often than not, the ones who are purposefully offensive, no matter what side of the fence they're on, are the ones with the issues.
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posted
You can't be a Christian and have a Lust for Feet.As you should know according to the Bible that is one of the seven deadly sins.Not attacking your beliefs by any means, but sounds kinda like "user-friendly" christianity to me.
SpartaChris:WORD! however..one thing i need to ask.Where is the proof again that we evolved from monkeys? I agreed with everything, however we still haven't found 100% infallible proof..but when the day comes.look out,the ratings for Televangilists will drop like a rock lol
quote:Originally posted by Wrinklesguy: You can't be a Christian and have a Lust for Feet.As you should know according to the Bible that is one of the seven deadly sins.Not attacking your beliefs by any means, but sounds kinda like "user-friendly" christianity to me.
I was waiting for something like this to be said.
Lust isn't an emotion pertaining exclusively to sexual desires. You can lust after money you wish you had, a car you wish you were driving, a home you wish you were living in, etc.
Besides, lusting after something and the simple acknowledgement of something being cool, nice, or even attractive are on two different wave-length's. For instance, if I gush on for a bit about, say, Le Sultry Sasha's feet and legs, that doesn't automatically denote actual lust on my behalf because she's a happily married woman that I don't stand a chance with anyway. For me to actually lust after her would be putting her on some kind of pedestal in my mind, thinking I absolutely needed to have her in my life, and hating Photo Guy because he's the one married to her...that of course isn't the case. I can compliment her, drool over her imagery, and as soon as the computer goes off the thoughts come to an end. No harm no foul...
Maybe I'm wrong about all of that, but the thing I understand about Christianity is that you don't have to sign away your actual humanity by buying into it. Christian doctrines, to my understanding, are put in place to better guide our judgements and personal life-decisions, helping us along in becoming better people, and ultimately getting right with God.
For instance, it's perfectly okay and even human to get angry at times...you can't avoid it in this lifetime, unless you're some kinda' hermit living out in the middle of no where. So what do you do when somebody pisses you off? Well, going on what the Bible says you try to find it in your heart to love and pray for your enemies, forgiving them just as God forgives you. Sure you can't always do it, and sure it's hard to do pretty much 99% of the time, but by following some of the doctrines, by not hating on the person when they're not around, and not seeking revenge at the next given opportunity for example, you wind up being a happier and better person because of it. What didn't kill you made you stronger, basically.
Same goes for lust...or the derivatives thereof. As men we think about sex four out of every five minutes, it's in our nature and feels normal. So what do we do about it? Do we get hung up on certain girls and make ourselves miserable by longing endlessly for them to be in our lives, therefore buying into lust? Of course not, that kinda' stuff leads to stalking and God knows what else. If we can keep our sexual desires in check however, actual lust can be avoided.
Yeah, I probably sound like a hypocrit by talking about God out one side of my mouth, and then gushing out the other side over some girl, and especially on the very same forums. And yes I might be a walking contradiction...I won't rule out any possibilities. But since I believe in God, and understand the inherent human desires I believe He's instilled in us, then I deal with these desires the best ways I know how.
I have a really good friend who lost his faith because he had some minister to tell him that he'd go to hell by having the fantasies he had. To me that minster was WAY off...fantasies and human desires are normal! It's how we deal with these things that make them good or bad.
Sorry for getting on a soap box. You bring up a pretty good idea Wrinklesguy, but I think you're way off in saying you have to choose one or the other.
For that matter I'm a Christian who happens to believe evolutionary theory! You wouldn't believe the amount of people who think you have to buy into one or the other, but I personally never had a problem reconciling the two.
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