quote:Originally posted by Calico Jack: Okay, now back to your regularly scheduled Seattle grunge thread.
Calico Jack
Naw, since you brought up Helloween I thought I'd chime in again. Ok, I purposely DIDN'T mention them because I was thinking the same thing while typing that last response. I left 'em out just to make my argument sound better!
I saw them live in '88 and had their first few albums up to Keeper II. I dunno what their current output sounds like, but I just loved the stuff they did with the singer from the two Keeper albums.
quote:Originally posted by ledaemon: I just loved the stuff they did with the singer from the two Keeper albums.
That singer is Michael Kiske, and his influence in the band could definitely be felt in the new direction that their songwriting took once he got there. He even co-wrote some of the songs on those two Keeper albums. Michael was actually one of the people that Iron Maiden had considered as a potential candidate to replace Bruce Dickinson back when he'd departed the band. They ultimately ended up choosing Blaze Bayley to fill Dickinson's shoes, but I always thought that Kiske would've been a much better choice. Apparently Maiden thought that too, but rumor has it that Kiske turned down the offer to join the ranks of Maiden when approached about it.
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I totally agree with you on Metallica's watered down Bob Rock crap after "Justice". I was hoping that heavy metal would hit the mainstream instead of Metallica compromising their ability in order to conform to a radio friendly state. I will say, however, that "St Anger" was a cut way above the the other Bob Rock crap. The sound was terrible but the music was more old school and dirty than they've put out in a while. It's still no match for "Master of Puppets" or "Ride the Lightning" though. Those are untouchable classics.
Back to the grunge, I didn't mean to single out grunge bands for their depressing and drug induced lyrics. That's just the stereotype I had in my head. When I think of grunge, I think of Heroin, dirt and flannel shirts. It's just now I have a great deal of respect for the music and writing ability of the flannel wearin' MoFos.
I dug up my old cassette tapes and I'm listening to Alice In Chains "Facelift" right now as I type this. LOVE IT!
Have you seen AIC's "Unplugged" from MTV? I swear, the way they open with "Nutshell" makes the hair in my neck stand up and almost brings a tear to my eye. Freakin' awesome!
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Blaze was the flatest most godawful singer that Maiden could have chosen to be the frontman. It is surprising that a band of Maiden's fame couldn't have attracted someone of some ability. They were on a downward plunge during the 90's mind you, but JEEZE! I'm glad Bruce got lured back into the fold with the promise of a regular paycheck!
The AIC unplugged cd is great! I have that one in my collection along with the Nirvana one come to think of it!
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I always hated Pearl Jam. I thought they were so overrated.
I'm surprised that AIC is leading the vote. They were certainly a good band, but a snooze live.
I think Nirvana was clearly the best, but Soundgarden during the Louder than Love and Bad Motorfinger days are hard to beat.
I was the biggest Metallica fan on earth in the early 80's, but I lost the passion during "And Justice For All". They had become too mainstream and their music lost passion. "Ride the Lightning" by Metallica and "Hell Awaits" by Slayer were the two most influential metal albums of the 80s.
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quote:Originally posted by ledaemon: Most of the 80's mainstream metal was a bunch of white wimps with big teased hair in ripped spandex which I could not relate to whatsoever.
Whoa, hang on a sec! WHITE WIMPS?!? What does race have anything to do with it? Would it have been better if they were black wimps or hispanic wimps? Wimps are wimps.
Also, about the image. I haven't heard you say this but I think it's funny. I often hear people say thinks like "image shouldn't matter", then they immediately jump into how "ridiculous" those 80s glam bands looked. Well if image doesn't matter, then it shouldn't matter how those glam bands looked.
But for the record, I agree. I think image does matter somewhat, and I think those bands did look ridiculous. But actually I think they don't look anymore ridiculous than most of the bands that the mainstream considers "metal" today (i.e. Korn, hatebreed, etc). Also, while I thought 80s glam was lame, I find grunge, and especially nu-metal and metal-core to be even lamer.
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quote:Originally posted by face_pedestal: I think image does matter somewhat, and I think those bands did look ridiculous.
On this subject of image, I'd like to tell about one particular instance involving Iron Maiden that's always given me a chuckle. In the 12 Wasted Years biographical Maiden video that was released back in 1988, there's an interview featured with Bruce Dickinson in which he recounts the story of how he came to join Iron Maiden after being asked by manager Rod Smallwood to come down and sing with the band for an audition. Bruce's reply to Rod:
"Look, for a start, don't expect me to get dressed up in all that black leather gear and all that, and cut all my hair off and wear a frilly collar, because I'm not the same as the previous singer. I've got my own ideas about what should happen, and if you don't like it, stuff it."
The very next thing you see on the video is live concert footage of Bruce performing onstage with Maiden in 1982 after having officially gotten the job, and what's he wearing? Black leather gear! What was he wearing during the Somewhere In Time tour? A frilly collar! What does his hair look like today? It's all cut off!
Maybe they should be called Ironic Maiden instead!
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Image shouldn't matter if the music is good. If the glam bands of the 80's played music I could get into, I'd look past the image. I saw past Motley Crue's sprayed hair, make-up and skin tight leather enough to enjoy some of their older music.
quote:Originally posted by Bondo: Image shouldn't matter if the music is good.
I disagree on that. I think the whole package matters. For example some people like a band because they think the vocals are good. Some people like a band because they like the solos. I think the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I think the overall sound is more important than the individual musicians.
Also, on a larger scale, I think a band's concept is more important than just the sound of some of their songs. Music is the main focus, but I like to see a band PRESENT their music in a manner that is consistent with the aesthetic values of their music. Music is art, and art plays to all the senses, not just one.
I hold the same values true for other artforms as well, film for instance. The Lord of the Rings was a great trilogy. Some might say that it was great because of the script, acting and directing. But those are only parts of the whole. Set designs, wardrobe, and yest the film score all were important. I believe that the film would not have been as great had it not been enhanced by the perferctly composed score from Howard Shore. And without the believable wardrobes, it just all wouldn't have gelled as nicely.
Likewise, when I go to a metal show, I want to see a band that LOOKS like a metal band. To say that the way a band presents itself is not important, I believe is limiting the dynamics of the experience.
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Whoa, hang on a sec! WHITE WIMPS?!? What does race have anything to do with it? Would it have been better if they were black wimps or hispanic wimps? Wimps are wimps. [/QUOTE]
C'mon, don't get all PC on me talking about metal! Name one of those Nancy boy girly bands sporting lipstick and teased hair that had anything other than a 20 year old skinny white kid in it and I'll take it back! Don't take me too seriously Pedestal. I love to argue behind the safety of a keyboard!
Jack, I have that 12 Wasted Years video too and I caught the Bruce quote in it as totally hilarious. Bruce is pretty much a bonehead and seems to blunder through just about any interview he does. I think he's a great singer and frontman, but his opinions and mouth usually act as his worst enemy.
Whoa, hang on a sec! WHITE WIMPS?!? What does race have anything to do with it? Would it have been better if they were black wimps or hispanic wimps? Wimps are wimps.
C'mon, don't get all PC on me talking about metal! Name one of those Nancy boy girly bands sporting lipstick and teased hair that had anything other than a 20 year old skinny white kid in it and I'll take it back! [/QUOTE]
Since when is defending white people PC? Making fun of white people IS PC. Defending them ISN'T.
My point is that whether or not they are all white is irrelevent, so why bring it up?
For example, I could say I hate the NBA because it's mostly overpaid, spoiled, black guys. But I hate it because they are overpaid and spoiled, not because they are black. And to bring up the fact that they are black makes it sound like THAT is one of the reasons I hate it. Otherwise there would be no point in mentioning it. See my point?
Now, I realize you most likely meant nothing by your remark. But I couldn't let it pass. I hear WAY too much white-male bashing everyday, and, well frankly I'm quite tired of it.
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quote:Originally posted by ledaemon: Jack, I have that 12 Wasted Years video too and I caught the Bruce quote in it as totally hilarious.
Hey Paul, if you liked that one you'll probably also get a kick out of this other one too. There's another old Maiden VHS video out there from 1984 called Behind The Iron Curtain. It's a 4-track compilation of Maiden videos with footage of the band touring on the road in Poland, Hungary and Yugoslavia interspersed in between the songs. One of the segments shows Bruce making an appearance in a local club at night as he mingles with fans and enjoys a drink or two. One of the fans engages him in a discussion about how he (the fan) is very interested in making his own heavy metal music, but would like to play it with a synthesizer. Bruce shakes his head from side to side and replies, "No no, you can't play heavy metal with synthesizers." The fan then replies with conviction, "Yeah, I want!" It's an amusing exchange in and of itself, but perhaps what's most amusing about it is that the conversation took place during the band's World Slavery tour in 1984. The very next album of original material that they released after that was Somewhere in Time in 1986, and what's the very first thing that you hear when the opening title track begins? Yes indeed, a synthesizer! That whole album was drenched in synthesizer accompaniment, as was the next album after that (Seventh Son of a Seventh Son) as well.
Whoa, hang on a sec! WHITE WIMPS?!? What does race have anything to do with it? Would it have been better if they were black wimps or hispanic wimps? Wimps are wimps.
C'mon, don't get all PC on me talking about metal! Name one of those Nancy boy girly bands sporting lipstick and teased hair that had anything other than a 20 year old skinny white kid in it and I'll take it back! [/QUOTE]
I know I already replied to this, but I was rushed . Now I have a few minutes to make my point.
You say you'll take it back if I can name one guy who is not white. I don't know why I'm even going to respond to this as it is irrellevent to my point, but I feel challenged. Okay. Slash from Guns n Roses is hispanic. Also, maybe you've never heard of a couple of bands by the name of Loudness or EZO, both of which are totally glam and both of which had all Japanese members.
But even if your comment WERE true that ALL of the guys are skinny white guys. So what? My point is not just whether it's true, but whether it's RELEVANT.
For example, there are many other TRUE statements you could say about those 80s glam bands but wouldn't because they are not relevent. Here's one: All the glam bands had long hair. True, yes, but relevent, no. Here's another one that is blatantly obvious: They all have drummers. Yes, it's true, they all DO have drummers, but since it's not relevent, why would you point it out? Also, none, or very few of them were balding. Of course, it's not relevent.
If you were to say that you hate all those glam bands with full heads of long hair and drummers it may be FACTUALLY true, but it would sound like you would be much happier if they were bald and didn't have drummers.
So the fact that they are white is either relevant, or not relavent. If it isn't relavent it shouldn't be mentioned for the same reason other non-relevent facts shouldn't be mentioned. If on the other hand the fact that they are white IS relevent to why you don't like them, then that implies that you have a problem with white people (even if you ARE white). I'm just curious which one it is.
Earlier you had made a negative remark regarding hip-hop. I bring this up because, while ripping on glam bands you felt that it was important to point out that they are just "white wimps", yet when ripping on hip-hop you failed to point out the obvoius regarding race. Well over 90% of hip-hop is African-American, yet you didn't say something like "for the most part rap is just a bunch of dumb black people". It would have sounded racially charged, but it would have been the equivilent to what you said regarding glam. If you were so anti-P.C. then you wouldn't have had a problem saying that.
Whew!! I feel better after getting that off my chest.
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Face Pedastel, get a little puppy and name it "Life." Then you will have a life! I say this because I'm really a 300 pound black man with a score to settle with whitey! My avatar is really just of some white wimp boy whose picture I snapped before I capped his scrawny ass...dawg!
And on to CJ's reply...
I've saw that Maiden behind the Iron Curtain on MTV when it was first released back in '85 or so before Live After Death came out. I remember the funniest thing about the Polish synth dude was he kept mispronouncing their name calling them E-ron Maiden. At least if memory serves me right.
Have you picked up the video collection of all their vids from '80 to 2001??? They were never real good at videos and many of them seem so visually silly and dated even though the music does hold up. One interesting thing on the "Can I Play With Madness" video is that the teacher in the video is played by none other than Monty Python's Graham Chapman. Of course I'm sure you already knew this!
quote:Originally posted by ledaemon: Have you picked up the video collection of all their vids from '80 to 2001???
Nah, I never got around to picking that one up because I pretty much stopped collecting Maiden stuff in 1991, so my last official purchase of theirs was the No Prayer for the Dying album. Don't get me wrong, I still think that they've recorded some strong material after that point ("The Wicker Man" rules, for instance), but overall I guess my basic gripe is that their music largely became a recycled carbon copy of itself and they never really hit the same creative heights again that they'd hit in the mid-1980s.
quote:Originally posted by ledaemon: They were never real good at videos and many of them seem so visually silly and dated even though the music does hold up.
Agreed. Yeah, I knew about Graham Chapman's appearance as the madman in Can I Play with Madness. They probably could've saved a few bucks by just casting Nicko as the madman instead. He did a pretty good job playing the hooded nutjob in the Flight of Icarus video, so it wouldn't have been much of a stretch for him. hehe
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